The drab hand of religions.

[Balifrog]

It's not wrong at all. I'm well aware of the conversations. Yes obvious signs of faith are not allowed there, except for the ones that are.
The ability to overhear conversations (in English) from another continent and to correct them would be very extraordinary indeed.

So you know France better than me....

LOL.... When was last time you were in Paris or London ?

 

[Hawk256]

In Iran, women are legally required to wear a hijab, covering the hair and neck, along with modest clothing that covers the arms and legs in public spaces. Many Iranian women later study in Europe, particularly in the UK, where such legal requirements do not exist. Once living and studying in the UK, how many of these female students continue to wear the same attire in public areas on campus?

If wearing this clothing is primarily a matter of personal choice rather than legal or social enforcement, what factors influence whether they choose to continue or discontinue wearing it abroad?

The question for trio @Pak Tani, @Bob, @Hawk256

My wife has sisters and cousins that live in the US, They continue to wear hijab. So from my point of view and experience, they do it because they want to even though it many not be popular in the area they liv e. Sorry but I can't speak for anyone else.

 

[Hawk256]

So you know France better than me....

LOL.... When was last time you were in Paris or London ?

Not even Emmanuel Macron knows France better than you. Sorry had to do that.

 

[Bob]

It can be noted that there are few women seen in street demonstrations. Is it because their brains are smaller and they don't think? What women do and don't do is greatly influenced by cultural pressures in the societies in which they live. As with the habits of Catholic nuns these are women who have chosen a life of abstinence by choice but wearing of hijabs is not just for vestal virigins. (Since 1960 fewer nuns wear the full length costume.) It seems there is increasing pressure for women in Indonesia to wear hijabs. I wonder how many not particularly religions women think, "Ohh, I would love to cover myself head to foot in that dreary costume."

It’s been a while since I’ve noticed a labor rights demonstration in Indonesia but women were very well represented in those I have seen. Maybe the subject matters.

 

[Bob]

So you know France better than me....

LOL.... When was last time you were in Paris or London ?

I know my French colleagues better than you of course.
London’s not in France any more, they moved .

 

[Balifrog]

Not even Emmanuel Macron knows France better than you. Sorry had to do that.

You didn't answer the question....
You took the easy escape ?
Or you didn't get the tongue in cheek meaning of my post....
Paris :

London :

 

[Hawk256]

You didn't answer the question....
You took the easy escape ?
Or you didn't get the tongue in cheek meaning of my post....
Paris :
View attachment 5367
View attachment 5366

London :

View attachment 5365

I always take the easy escape just like others that will not be named. I'm done now back to your regular scheduled post.

 

[serious_fun]

Many of our (female)* neighbours wear a kerudung because it's much easier/faster than fixing their hair!

Not unlike the "poor man's haircut" which we also call a "hat".

*one assumes that there are no men doing this, but who knows? I'm not going to peek.

 

[pantaiema]

That's art? I guess a strip club is a ballet then. Does an activity making money make it worthwhile?

Of course it is an art. And an art is supposed to make money, isn't it ? Otherwise how many people would want to put effort on it ?.

For some people, including fashion experts, view wearing thongs or bikinis in public as an artistic expression. This is only one example among many.
See the title 'Fashion ART Bikini Models - Swimwear'


Also, The Black Tape Project a fashion project and exhibition is an artistic movement that replaces traditional swimwear or lingerie with intricate designs made entirely out of adhesive tape. At least that is how the public, experts who follow this movement are saying.

Consider also male models such as David Beckham and Cristiano Ronaldo posing for the well-known brand Armani (see attachment). I believe one reason some people dislike this and fail to recognise its artistic value is envy because they know they are unlikely to be able to achieve a body anywhere close to that level of fitness to make it valuable as a piece of art to make money. They may also believe that if they don’t engage with artistic works like this, they will ultimately meet God.

It seems that you have yourself confused. The demonstrations were in Jakarta and about Jakarta, so participation of people from other provinces wouldn't be expected. You brought up financial incentive so I'll leave the answer on that to you.

What does that have to do with this conversation?

The confusion appears to come from your side, likely due to limited knowledge of Jakarta. Many debt collectors, parking mafias, and those controlling illegal revenues in public markets in Jakarta are from Maluku (Moluccas), Flores, Papua islands and other parts of eastern Indonesia. Jakarta also has a considerable population of university students from eastern Indonesia including from Molluscan, Flores, Papua, North/Central Sulawesi, Centra/West Kalimantan (Dayak, Chinese ethnic)

 

[pantaiema]

On the other hand it may also be someone's personal decision.
On the other hand it may not be the case and they experienced pressure from the society (western or not) they were visiting to remove their veils.
Pretty hard argueing with that.

And what is the word ‘may’ supposed to mean ?
This is what I said previously

.
So who is trying 'hard argueing' here ?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I remember flying out of Tehran in 2011 on Air Asia. After 20 minutes the pilot said we are now leaving Iranian airspace. And I kid you not several women promptly ripped off all their veils and islamic stuff and ordered alcohol.
That's how much women want to wear those drab, uncomfortable clothes.
At that time Tehran was such a dull oppressive place, with all the women wearing black. Maybe it has improved now.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I remember a user on the old forum putting a list of six reasons why women wear jilbabs. And none of them were 'because a sky God wants me to'.
If I remember correctly one was social\family pressure, one was attempting to look pious to get a husband, one was to save money\time on taking care of their hair, one was to avoid being hassled on public transport, one was to appear innocent when accused of a crime, I can't remember the other one

 

[Hawk256]

I remember flying out of Tehran in 2011 on Air Asia. After 20 minutes the pilot said we are now leaving Iranian airspace. And I kid you not several women promptly ripped off all their veils and islamic stuff and ordered alcohol.
That's how much women want to wear those drab, uncomfortable clothes.
At that time Tehran was such a dull oppressive place, with all the women wearing black. Maybe it has improved now.

Been in and out of Saudi, UAE and Qatar many times. Never seen anything like that in the past 15 years. Iran are Shia Muslims, maybe they think differently.

 

[Hawk256]

I remember a user on the old forum putting a list of six reasons why women wear jilbabs. And none of them were 'because a sky God wants me to'.
If I remember correctly one was social\family pressure, one was attempting to look pious to get a husband, one was to save money\time on taking care of their hair, one was to avoid being hassled on public transport, one was to appear innocent when accused of a crime, I can't remember the other one

Like I said before my wife and her family would disagree with your assesment. I have talked to too many that all say they do it for "Allah". Maybe you are choosing women from the wrong places if you have those ideas.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Maybe they are telling you what they think you want to hear?

 

[Bob]

Of course it is an art. And an art is supposed to make money, isn't it ?

Calling that art is a real stretch. Art's main purpose isn't to make money although it may.

Otherwise how many people would want to put effort on it ?.

Maybe for the satisfaction of creating something beautiful.

For some people, including fashion experts, view wearing thongs or bikinis in public as an artistic expression. This is only one example among many.
See the title 'Fashion ART Bikini Models - Swimwear'

That's advertising much more than it's art, if it's art.

Also, The Black Tape Project a fashion project and exhibition is an artistic movement that replaces traditional swimwear or lingerie with intricate designs made entirely out of adhesive tape. At least that is how the public, experts who follow this movement are saying.

Consider also male models such as David Beckham and Cristiano Ronaldo posing for the well-known brand Armani (see attachment). I believe one reason some people dislike this and fail to recognise its artistic value is envy because they know they are unlikely to be able to achieve a body anywhere close to that level of fitness to make it valuable as a piece of art to make money. They may also believe that if they don’t engage with artistic works like this, they will ultimately meet God.

Again it's advertising. I'm sure that what you think will let you meet God isn't silly at all.

The confusion appears to come from your side, likely due to limited knowledge of Jakarta. Many debt collectors, parking mafias, and those controlling illegal revenues in public markets in Jakarta are from Maluku (Moluccas), Flores, Papua islands and other parts of eastern Indonesia. Jakarta also has a considerable population of university students from eastern Indonesia including from Molluscan, Flores, Papua, North/Central Sulawesi, Centra/West Kalimantan (Dayak, Chinese ethnic)

My mistake, I read your words as written, and thought it was related to my comment about Catholic students in Flores. I see now that you meant Jakarta residents of various ethnicities.
I mentioned Ahok's favoritism to certain players as motivation for the demonstrations. You built the straw man of economic complaints.
"..limited knowledge of Jakarta" is pretty funny, congratulations.

 

[Balifrog]

Like I said before my wife and her family would disagree with your assesment. I have talked to too many that all say they do it for "Allah". Maybe you are choosing women from the wrong places if you have those ideas.

Or maybe she gave you the answer she is supposed to give you ?
Nothing personal, just a possibility that can not be ignored....

 

[Balifrog]

Been in and out of Saudi, UAE and Qatar many times. Never seen anything like that in the past 15 years. Iran are Shia Muslims, maybe they think differently.

Been in Iran (Bander Abbas) in 1975 for the Shah's Iranian Navy Days.
Visited Persepolis and Shiraz (carpets).
The big cities were very Westernized and girls were dressed like in the West.
After that we went to Bassorah in Iraq, a bit more religious but you could still find anything you wanted.
That was before the US went there to bring them democracy....
Saudi in the early 80's was strict, with the religious police being feared, even by us expats.
Was in Dubai / Abu Dhabi early 2000's, as long you behaved correctly in public there is no problem. At night everything is available, clubs full of alcohol and girls from all over the world.
Nowadays there is no way I would go to any of those places, whatever the money.
Luckily after that my company kept me in Asia. Much more fun !

 

[Pak Tani]

I remember a user on the old forum putting a list of six reasons why women wear jilbabs. And none of them were 'because a sky God wants me to'.
If I remember correctly one was social\family pressure, one was attempting to look pious to get a husband, one was to save money\time on taking care of their hair, one was to avoid being hassled on public transport, one was to appear innocent when accused of a crime, I can't remember the other one

If you believe there are no women wearing a jilbab because of religious reasons, there is a big disconnect between you and the islamic society around you.

 

[Balifrog]

If you believe there are no women wearing a jilbab because of religious reasons, there is a big disconnect between you and the islamic society around you.

There are certainly some who do it out of religious reasons (maybe simply because it has been endoctrinated in them since very young...), but there are also a lot who do it because of environment and family pressure.

Same is true in any religion BTW.
My brothers / sister and I were obliged by my mother to go to the mass every Sunday when we were young.
Once teenager, 14 / 15 we decided it was enough and stopped going. It created a bit if a conflict with Mom, but she got over it.

Funny thing is my dad, who was politically rather on the "red" side was absolutely against church, and never went with us. But he simply didn't want to enter a argument with Mom, so he let us go. Again, family pressure.