Nuclear submarines and regional security.

[centurion]

Yeah that too. But mainly the economics. They can have personal freedoms and their chosen form of government without affiliation with the EU.

As the Russian invasion shows, you cannot have personal freedoms and forms of government by your choice, without an alliance with stronger powers, especially if you have a big and not very pleasant neighbor. They have chosen the EU and NATO as the most ideologically close to them.

 

[Bob]

As the Russian invasion shows, you cannot have personal freedoms and forms of government by your choice, without an alliance with stronger powers, especially if you have a big and not very pleasant neighbor. They have chosen the EU and NATO as the most ideologically close to them.

Idealogically and economically, mainly economically. If the EU was a liberal free thought utopia with a per capita GDP of $5,000 the ex-Iron Curtain states wouldn't be so enthusiastic to tag along. It's not like Eastern Europe has a strong history of liberal government.
There are plenty of examples that show it's possible for a country to have the government it wants without alliances, except maybe when the leader's name is Ghadaffi.

 

[centurion]

Idealogically and economically, mainly economically. If the EU was a liberal free thought utopia with a per capita GDP of $5,000 the ex-Iron Curtain states wouldn't be so enthusiastic to tag along. It's not like Eastern Europe has a strong history of liberal government.
There are plenty of examples that show it's possible for a country to have the government it wants without alliances, except maybe when the leader's name is Ghadaffi.

Eastern Europe countries were all democracies before WW2, and all countries that joined the EU made significant progress in good governance systems, human rights, and other democratic standards. None of them wants out, especially after the invasion.

Which countries that have bullies - big neighbors, are without alliances and are successful?

 

[Bob]

Eastern Europe countries were all democracies before WW2, and all countries that joined the EU made significant progress in good governance systems, human rights, and other democratic standards. None of them wants out, especially after the invasion.

Which countries that have bullies - big neighbors, are without alliances and are successful?

There's Switzerland. Otherwise it depends how we define successful, although that's a late addition to the discussion.
Were the countries in Eastern Europe democracies before WWI?

 

[Balifrog]

Please remember that the Eastern EU countries provide the low cost labor for the Western EU countries....
As exemple all main car manufacturers have set up factories there and closed several in France and Germany.
By integrating those countries in the EU, the rich EU countries have a win win situation. A low cost country with open borders and tax free circulation of goods.
They can also delocalise any "dirty" or poluting industry there.

 

[centurion]

There's Switzerland. Otherwise it depends how we define successful, although that's a late addition to the discussion.
Were the countries in Eastern Europe democracies before WWI?

Switzerland seized all Russian money after the invasion without a blink of an eye- so much about independence.

Most of the East-European countries were non-existent before WWI, on the territory of the Russian, Austro-Hungarian, and German Empires. The existing ones were kingdoms, with a parliament, similar to other countries in Europe at the time.

 

[centurion]

They can also delocalise any "dirty" or poluting industry there.

EU has harmonized regulations, including environmental, and "dirty" industries are not relocated in such a manner. Standards for polluting industries are light years ahead of third-world countries-you cannot find anywhere in the EU pollution and littering like it is in Jakarta for example.

 

[Balifrog]

EU has harmonized regulations, including environmental, and "dirty" industries are not relocated in such a manner. Standards for polluting industries are light years ahead of third-world countries-you cannot find anywhere in the EU pollution and littering like it is in Jakarta for example.

Don't compare Indo and EU pollution regulations....
"Harmonized regulations" yeah, yeah,... that why Germany last year closed nuclear powerplants and reactivated coal powerplants ?

There is a lot of "flexiblity" and "sovereignety" in the EU !

There is NO doubt the ex Eastern countries are the low cost providers for the rich EU countries. Germany being the one who exploits the system the most.

 

[centurion]

"Harmonized regulations" yeah, yeah,... that why Germany last year closed nuclear powerplants and reactivated coal powerplants ?

There are minimum standards that EU members have to follow.

 

[serious_fun]

There is NO doubt the ex Eastern countries are the low cost providers for the rich EU countries. Germany being the one who exploits the system the most.

Germany must be frantic ever since the US sabotoged Nord Stream!

 

[Balifrog]

Germany must be frantic ever since the US sabotoged Nord Stream!

In the EU, Germany is the lackey of the US.
They will swallow anything coming from the US.
Remember NSA tapping A.Merkel's phone ?

 

[serious_fun]

In the EU, Germany is the lackey of the US.
They will swallow anything coming from the US.
Remember NSA tapping A.Merkel's phone ?

Ja! Das ist richtig.

 

[flavus]

Germany must be frantic ever since the US sabotoged Nord Stream!

To be fair to the US (which, yes, had its hands in many shenanigans), it might be a Ukrainian group this time. Investigation seems to be progressing

Traces of explosives found in yacht in Nord Stream sabotage investigation, diplomats say

Investigators found traces of undersea explosives in samples taken from a yacht that was searched as part of a probe into last year’s attacks on the Nord Stream gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea

abcnews.go.com

 

[Balifrog]

To be fair to the US (which, yes, had its hands in many shenanigans), it might be a Ukrainian group this time. Investigation seems to be progressing

Traces of explosives found in yacht in Nord Stream sabotage investigation, diplomats say

Investigators found traces of undersea explosives in samples taken from a yacht that was searched as part of a probe into last year’s attacks on the Nord Stream gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea

abcnews.go.com

Come on ..... be serious.....

 

[flavus]

Come on ..... be serious.....

I am, that's why I am not jumping to conclusions

 

[harryopal1]

Today it was announced that a new dam has been completed, Rookwood Weir, west of Rockhampton in central Queensland, Australia. Construction started in 2020 with an estimated construction cost of $352 million. This has blown out to $569 million in just three years. This is the kind of tendency in blow outs which staggers me with Australia committed to spending $380 billion for maybe 8 nuclear submarines with perhaps about 2050 for delivery. What will be the real cost by 2050? I am inclined towards former Australian Prime Minister, Paul Keating's remark that this is "the worst deal in all history”

 

[snpark]

And by 2050 ? Seriously? So the tech will already be a quarter century out of date

 

[harryopal1]

And by 2050 ? Seriously? So the tech will already be a quarter century out of date

No, no. They will be state of the art or actually a new kind of art form. I am really being needlessly pessimistic. What's a few hundred billion here or there? Maybe a national raffle with winning tickets being a ride in nuclear sub could be used to offset blowout costs. Think of the positives. Obviously the Chinese will be too frightened to go near the Spratly Islands or South China sea anymore. And if they did we could nuke them.... Oops. No we can't we won't have nuclear weapons. Well anyway all those people sleeping in the streets for lack of housing and people ramped on stretchers for hours outside emergency wards will find consolation and a great sense of pride in what a fabulous nation we are to become.

 

[snpark]

Honestly if they are not even going to be ready by at least 2050 why even bother

 

[centurion]

Australia has the same problem like Indonesia, both think they are very important in strategic or any other sense.