Falling out of love with Indonesia.

[Daniel50]

What I’ve seen in Central and West Java is that the tolerance has been decreasing considerably. And if constant loud noise is considered normal and complaining is blasphemous and will make you go to jail (do not pass GO, do not collect 200 rupiah), and if the local supermarket is not allowed to sell me a beer anymore, those are signs for me it has gone too far in this society.

I believe that West Java has been known to have more extremists for years. I thought this was sort of common knowledge. And I have heard, whether true or false, there were two jihad training centres one in Central Java and another in West Java.

 

[Daniel50]

As someone on a very small pension I can certainly have a much more pleasant lifestyle in Bali given the relative costs of living.

Being on a limited budget can put a person in a difficult situation in many places in the West.....if a person doesn't own their place, in a decent neighborhood, then the rentals available can be in pretty rough areas that could make some intolerance, in Indonesia, look not too bad.

 

[Chiron]

This was a couple years ago when ISIS was in the news every day, but shows there are at least some individuals in Solo who were thinking about going to Syria.

 

[Daniel50]

It is okay Chiron we would likely still drop by to visit you, and your wife, if we are in Solo. We would just ask that you not take us to any parades, like the one posted above.

 

[Chiron]

It is okay Chiron we would likely still drop by to visit you, and your wife, if we are in Solo. We would just ask that you not take us to any parades, like the one posted above.

What's interesting is this video was filmed right on the main boulevard - Jalan Slamet Riyadi. It has three lanes, and is one-way only for several kilometers. The "parade" is taking up the middle lane, and ends up at a statue with some historical figure holding a pistol to the sky. This area is close to where most of the Middle Eastern folks live (Saudi Arabians , Pakistanis, etc.). It's also a place where they have other demonstrations, like political, Islamic, anti-Israel sorts of things. At the start of the one-way section (where the video begins) of Riyadi is a train station with a large concrete wall that's usually covered with graffiti mural street art (actually kind of interesting, professional quality stuff). Someone ended up painting over the murals with black paint and painted a massive ISIS flag in white characters. This was a bit much for the mayor of Solo, and he had it painted over as news agencies covered the story.

During that time, my nephew-in-law was having a three story building constructed in Solo. I would hang out at the construction site, and drink tea while I watched him supervise the progress. There were about 10 workers, and he told me about half of them were members of ISIS. They all smiled and were friendly to the American guy from Texas (yours truly). The nephew said they were all very strong and good workers. When I brought up the news stories about ISIS in Syria, he just laughed, and thought the whole thing was a joke. He said "these guys participate in that group just to impress the ladies, and has little to do with what you're talking about."

 

[Daniel50]

What's interesting is this video was filmed right on the main boulevard - Jalan Slamet Riyadi. It has three lanes, and is one-way only for several kilometers. The "parade" is taking up the middle lane, and ends up at a statue with some historical figure holding a pistol to the sky. This area is close to where most of the Middle Eastern folks live (Saudi Arabians , Pakistanis, etc.). It's also a place where they have other demonstrations, like political, Islamic, anti-Israel sorts of things. At the start of the one-way section (where the video begins) of Riyadi is a train station with a large concrete wall that's usually covered with graffiti mural street art (actually kind of interesting, professional quality stuff). Someone ended up painting over the murals with black paint and painted a massive ISIS flag in white characters. This was a bit much for the mayor of Solo, and he had it painted over as news agencies covered the story.

During that time, my nephew-in-law was having a three story building constructed in Solo. I would hang out at the construction site, and drink tea while I watched him supervise the progress. There were about 10 workers, and he told me about half of them were members of ISIS. They all smiled and were friendly to the American guy from Texas (yours truly). The nephew said they were all very strong and good workers. When I brought up the news stories about ISIS in Syria, he just laughed, and thought the whole thing was a joke. He said "these guys participate in that group just to impress the ladies, and has little to do with what you're talking about."

Well that is interesting......what do you make of that? It doesn't sound too terrifying. Solo area is also where that one cleric is/was from, Abu Bakar Bashir who is 80 and in prison on terrorist related charges.

At this point we are not really worried about the extremists and Indonesia still feels fairly safe to me/us. Of course this could change over time and unless there are people doing something about radicalism it will grow. But the authorities seem to do a fairly good job staying on top of this. Also going to jail for blasphemy for complaining about a loud speaker is over the top and of course burning down Buddhist temples. But we shall see what the future holds.

 

[Chiron]

Well that is interesting......what do you make of that? It doesn't sound too terrifying. Solo area is also where that one cleric is/was from, Abu Bakar Bashir who is 80 and in prison on terrorist related charges.

So that is a relevant question pertaining to this thread, and worth thinking about. As extreme as the outer images would portray, these guys are just regular people at the end of the day. On the other hand, we may have an easy-going, compliant culture that's easily swayed by external influences or other societal pressures. In looking to avoid broad generalizations about the culture, we have witnessed notable phenomena pop up in Indonesian history several times. Taking the 98 Krismon riots, and communist pogroms of the mid 60's you find normally very nice people quickly morphed into something else. Are those types of events never to happen again - who knows??

Part of the reason why Indonesia may be so interesting, may also be why it's also concerning. There seems to be a recurring theme of mass mobilization around nationalistic themes. At the same time, we have this very endearing culture with some of the most thoughtful and kind people in the world. Indonesia is filled with it's share of dichotomies - some are quite illogical. So maybe falling in, or out of love with Indonesia may have to do with one's present state of mind, and where one finds them self in the various sociological swings of the country. For me, that's the attraction of Indonesia - it's both challenging and pleasant at the same time. I just hope that it doesn't wear me out, and I'm looking to bail out after some period of time.

 

[scouser59]

I would find isis demos on my doorstep not very appealing .

 

[harryopal1]

I suppose we might console ourselves regarding extremists by referring to them as a bunch of loonies and laughing it off with the thought that the majority of people are just ordinary decent people. But it only requires a serious bunch of loonies to plunge a nation into darkness and repression.

Here is a link from the Melbourne Age today about killing of prominent women of interest in Iran.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/mid...targeted-in-murder-spree-20180930-p506xo.html.

 

[rabbit_39]

don't forget church closures in West Java, Jambi, etc.

 

[Matoa]

I have similar concerns. I ask myself whether I want to start a family in a country where intolerance is rising and intellectual freedom doesn't really exist. It's also really hard to feel 'at home' in a place where you are regularly charged inflated prices because of your ethnicity (even as a KITAS holder I often get asked for 30x the local rate to enter a national park). For the oil and gas folk this probably makes no difference but for a teacher it is a considerable expense.

The other key issue is what the country will look like when automation properly arrives in 10-15 years or so. Millions of poor folk out of work and with few useful skills. Add that to a sinking capital city and rising sea levels and it could get pretty nasty in the coming decades.

I admit that your perception of the country is to an extent determined by your current mood, but I have struggled to see the positives over the last few months. I think if religious intolerance wasn't an issue and I was treated a little more equally rather than continually tapped for cash because of my skin colour then the positives would outweigh the negatives.

 

[rabbit_39]

I'd settle for all of us being able to generally receive what is our basic rights... Walk safely on sidewalks, seated and given the menu and order taken at restaurants, drive on public roads without gates blocking the way, etc

 

[Matoa]

Yes it would be nice to walk down the street without continuous low level intrusion in the form of 'bule' or whatever. Some are sincere, but a decent number are taking the p***, especially when in groups. I wonder how an Indonesian would feel in London having the word 'Pak' shouted at them every 30 seconds! Probably not a great holiday and even worse if they live there.

On the plus side, Bahasa Indonesia is very easy on the ear - one of the most pleasant languages to listen to.

 

[Daniel50]

I have similar concerns. I ask myself whether I want to start a family in a country where intolerance is rising and intellectual freedom doesn't really exist. It's also really hard to feel 'at home' in a place where you are regularly charged inflated prices because of your ethnicity (even as a KITAS holder I often get asked for 30x the local rate to enter a national park). For the oil and gas folk this probably makes no difference but for a teacher it is a considerable expense.

The other key issue is what the country will look like when automation properly arrives in 10-15 years or so. Millions of poor folk out of work and with few useful skills. Add that to a sinking capital city and rising sea levels and it could get pretty nasty in the coming decades.

I admit that your perception of the country is to an extent determined by your current mood, but I have struggled to see the positives over the last few months. I think if religious intolerance wasn't an issue and I was treated a little more equally rather than continually tapped for cash because of my skin colour then the positives would outweigh the negatives.

There is certainly nothing wrong with making a positive change. I am sure you would not be the first, or last, to move home or elsewhere. When a person is thinking about whether to make a change we have the most ambivalence(mixed thoughts and feelings) sometimes doing something as simple as a decisional balance can help get it out of my head onto paper. Meaning list the pros and cons to stay on one side and the pros and cons to leave on another side of the paper. Of course everyone's circumstances are different and the fears/realities they face as well as long term goals/plans for family etc..

 

[jstar]

With the danger it becomes more and more a 'how to select a place to live/retire' thread; I have adjusted my criteria and their weight somewhat. (You might remember the calculation method to decide.)

Perhaps it's about getting older, losing people close by, becoming grumpy and intolerant, or just common sense. But I consider (the remainder of) my life too valuable to have it screwed up by some ignorant ....

Nothing will be perfect of course, but there are places better suited.

 

[Daniel50]

It is a thread about falling out of love with Indonesia and this seems like it has already happened for you. Perhaps you never really fell in love with Indonesia? I looked again at your rating system and fastpitch agreed with same. So at the time Indonesia was not the long term/retirement place for you and it appears this is still the same? Any ideas, you wish to share, on where you and your wife may retire/live? And why you have not chosen Indonesia although you have stated or alluded to these.

As I stated prior I have never really fallen in love with Indonesia but will live in Bali to be closer to family and the weather is nice enough/ okay lots of sunshine. Maybe along the way I will fall more or less in love with Indonesia but family will always be a main consideration.

 

[waarmstrong]

Having plenty of things to complain about seems to mesh well with my disposition making Indonesia a good fit. I have also moved around enough (although much less than many on this board) to come to the conclusion that place and amenities are far less dispositive than the personalities encountered.

 

[Chiron]

Meaning list the pros and cons to stay on one side and the pros and cons to leave on another side of the paper.

Here's my top fives list.

Pros of retirement in Indonesia:
1. Cost of living much lower than United States (or other Western Countries)
2. Meager retirement salary will go probably go much further, making bucket list items more affordable.
3. Close to wife's family (for my wife, this is number one and arguably the only reason...)
4. Old age issues can be mitigated to some extent with household helpers/drivers, and possibly less isolation depending on how you develop things.
5. The culture and geography can be quite interesting and picturesque, however your mileage may vary depending where you go.

Cons of retirement in Indonesia:
1. Getting good healthcare can be a challenge, or possibly non-existent unless you travel in some cases.
2. Noise - could elaborate, but will leave it at that.
3. Dealing with government can range from a moderate hassle to severely annoying.
4. Religious issues - possibly leading to discrimination/unfairness in some cases.
5. Mosquitos - this could be at the top of the list, but I do carry good repellent.

Life is just a challenge - I think by design. You have to pick your poison and make the best of it.

 

[jstar]

Close to wife's family (for my wife, this is number one and arguably the only reason...)

Yep.

As long as this is the case, Indonesia will always be (partly) our 'home'. But we have been deinvesting considerably the previous two years. And it probably will lead to only an apartment in Jakarta('s vicinity). I'm not sure on what to do with Bali, in today's market probably rent it out long term.

Coming back to @Daniel50 's question: this winter we will visit Southern Europe and the Leeward Antilles to 'shop'. To be continued...

 

[Daniel50]

@Chiron ....... Interesting list and also for my wife, family is most important. I think for us it will be either live in Indonesia or Canada. Even though there is free health care ,in Canada, a person is able to hire staff in Indonesia as one gets older (if you have a bit of money).This can be positive and negative......meaning it is not always easy find good staff. But health care could get expensive and a person may need to travel for it, which is not always possible, depending on circumstances.

We will live in Indonesia and at some point, if we want, return to Canada. I can't really see that happening unless something drastic happens but hey who knows these things.

@jstar .......and as far as jstar is concerned who knows.........