Anyone Care To Fly United Airlines

[Daniel50]

Trying to wring every dime and nickel for the bottom line puts pressure right through the system. More unhappy customers equals more stressed/disempowered employees trying to sort out difficult/tense situations. This drives down staff morale and lowers empathy as everyone is trying to survive/get through. If this is a long term strategy I can only hope it does not mirror the broader society when in fact it probably does.

 

[William King]

If the Aircraft Captain or On-Duty Police/Security with authority orders a passenger off the Aircraft under any circumstance...that is a lawful order. If the person then wishes to litigate they are at liberty to do so.
It's the same as a restaurant or bar owner able to order a customer off his/her premise...they have the right. The customer also has the right to litigate a complaint.
Neither have the right to remain where they are...that then becomes a police arresting issue

I do not agree. Captains, restauranteurs or bar owners do not have carte blanche to order people on or off for no reason. I am sure they would have to have good reason, or suspicion. eg; drunk, drugs, erratic, bomb threats or so on.

But no reason, that harks back to days of racism. Not allowed.

 

[jstar]

 

[Davita]

I do not agree. Captains, restauranteurs or bar owners do not have carte blanche to order people on or off for no reason. I am sure they would have to have good reason, or suspicion. eg; drunk, drugs, erratic, bomb threats or so on.

But no reason, that harks back to days of racism. Not allowed.

You originally asked if it was a lawful order and I responded. I didn't say whether there needed to be a good or no reason. It doesn't make sense that someone who had the authority would use that authority arbitrarily unless they wanted the wrath of their customers, bosses or the Court if it got that far. If an airline Captain did that, for no reason, his employment status would be in jeopardy.

I think I've posted this story before but, as the subject is relevant, I'll repost....

It was last minute and only one door left open on a full B747 (400+ pax) with an approx. 10 hour flight ahead when I was called from the flight deck to see the Chief Purser.
We had already received Flight Nav Clearance so were in what is called "Slot Time' where, if you don't get to T.O. within a certain time, the clearance is invalid and a new clearance would need to be filed, causing a possible hour or two delay....so I was in a rush.

It appears a very fat guy demanded two seats. He'd raised the armrest and refused to give-up the adjacent seat. The other passenger was standing in the aisle waiting for his seat to be vacated. I asked the 1st guy if he'd made application for extra seating and he responded he hadn't. I told him that as there were no spare seats he had 2 choices....move over or leave the aircraft and get a refund or another flight. He became belligerent and I politely told him if he continued with that tone I would call security and he'd be arrested.
At this juncture the Chief Purser indicated to me the cabin crew emergency fold-down seats...I got his hint and quickly told the fat guy...you have a third option Sir. "If you agree to sit in your assigned single seat for Take Off and Landing the Chief here can give you one of those double fold-down seats for the cruise."
He slid over, folded down the arm-rest and the 2nd passenger, who was a skinny Asian, got into his assigned seat.
I went back to the flight deck and we completed the rest of the flight and landed early.

I later learned from the crew he'd had a miserable time as the doors, where those crew seats on a B747 are located, are not insulated and he was freezing. The crew said they could only give him one blanket....

The Asian passenger apparently enjoyed having two seats....

 

[Daniel50]

New video of the passenger talking calmly to security this is before they grab him(excuse me volunteer him to deplane).

https://ca.yahoo.com/news/footage-united-passenger-dragged-off-061038283.html

 

[William King]

You originally asked if it was a lawful order and I responded. I didn't say whether there needed to be a good or no reason. It doesn't make sense that someone who had the authority would use that authority arbitrarily unless

That's the definition of a lawful order. Just because someone is Captain, or President, or General, they cannot just make any order they want. There are predetermined parameters to what constitutes a lawful order or not to particular leaders in society.

Your red herring story is very nice, and most like constitutes a lawful order, asking a passenger to sit in his assigned seat only.

Physically removing a man who did not want to leave, who had already been boarded with a ticket and assigned seat, just because some crew members want a free flight may not be within the realms of a lawful order. Despite the weasel words of the CEO there is no evidence that the man was being belligerent or a danger risk or doing anything wrong, thus my question, was it a lawful order?

 

[Anglian]

Well I suppose the captain didn't order the passengers removal, it wascompany policy, so I think it's the Station Manager who carries out company policy

 

[Davita]

That's the definition of a lawful order. Just because someone is Captain, or President, or General, they cannot just make any order they want. There are predetermined parameters to what constitutes a lawful order or not to particular leaders in society.

Your red herring story is very nice, and most like constitutes a lawful order, asking a passenger to sit in his assigned seat only.

Physically removing a man who did not want to leave, who had already been boarded with a ticket and assigned seat, just because some crew members want a free flight may not be within the realms of a lawful order. Despite the weasel words of the CEO there is no evidence that the man was being belligerent or a danger risk or doing anything wrong, thus my question, was it a lawful order?

Given the colored line above...what would you do, if you were in charge, if the man refused to move?

 

[jstar]

More often than not, I see people move from their regular seat to a seat in the emergency exit row since they offer more leg space. Very often, these were more expensive and had to be booked in advance. Sometimes the crew makes a remark but if the passenger won't move, they let him be; they won't start a scene and delay the flight.

 

[fastpitch17]

More often than not, I see people move from their regular seat to a seat in the emergency exit row since they offer more leg space. Very often, these were more expensive and had to be booked in advance. Sometimes the crew makes a remark but if the passenger won't move, they let him be; they won't start a scene and delay the flight.

What gets me is when you see some guy or gal move themselves and young kids to these exit seats or someone with young kids book the exit seats. I thought policies state that only able bodies are to be placed there that could handle the doors in an emergency.

 

[Daniel50]

Given the colored line above...what would you do, if you were in charge, if the man refused to move?

I would like to send out my apologies to Davita and Anglian (aviation) as well as some people in security.

That is probably one of many reasons why I did not go into aviation, or security.

 

[Davita]

More often than not, I see people move from their regular seat to a seat in the emergency exit row since they offer more leg space. Very often, these were more expensive and had to be booked in advance. Sometimes the crew makes a remark but if the passenger won't move, they let him be; they won't start a scene and delay the flight.

What gets me is when you see some guy or gal move themselves and young kids to these exit seats or someone with young kids book the exit seats. I thought policies state that only able bodies are to be placed there that could handle the doors in an emergency.

This happens on Air Asia where those overwing emergency exit seats are priced higher.

In other jurisdictions those seats need to be occupied by someone who is capable of carrying out emergency duties in case of ditching or crash landing. Cabin Attendants verify this before take off when they brief those passengers on their special duty...I've been moved to those seats when it was clear the assigned passenger was incapable of those duties.

I've written twice to Air Asia Safety Officer about their policy but had no response.

 

[Anglian]

You do see some funny things at times, there some very odd people in this world and flying seems to topple there gyro

 

[Daniel50]

You do see some funny things at times, there some very odd people in this world and flying seems to topple there gyro

If you want, lets hear a few of your stories.

 

[Davita]

You do see some funny things at times, there some very odd people in this world and flying seems to topple there gyro

We were on an Air Asia flight between Malaysia/RI when those four seats were occupied by Arab ladies in full black Burqa...we could only see their eyes.
My wife and I always select opposite aisle seats and, on this day, my gyros must have toppled as I told my wife..."in any accident we climb over those ladies heads and release those over-wing windows... 'coz they are incapable with all that flowing dress and trying to keep their masks/head-cover in place."

 

[Daniel50]

David Dao's lawyers take legal action against United.

http://news.sky.com/story/united-pa...s-legal-action-over-forceful-removal-10835055

 

[ChrisTex]

Given the colored line above...what would you do, if you were in charge, if the man refused to move?

If the gate agents' hands aren't tied, they offer more money. Plus you get someone sitting in the aisle, not a window.

What gets me is when you see some guy or gal move themselves and young kids to these exit seats or someone with young kids book the exit seats. I thought policies state that only able bodies are to be placed there that could handle the doors in an emergency.

Able, willing, and over 16(might be 15). There is sometimes exceptions to the age, but it depends on the situation. I was nonreving from I think Rochester, NY to Chicago on American and I was 13 or 14. I was asked how old I was(I guess I looked the age) and when I told the gate agent, I believe he went ahead and gave me an emergency aisle seat.

 

[Davita]

Plus you get someone sitting in the aisle, not a window.

The question was...after all attempts to incentivize fail.....what do you do if he refuses to move?

 

[fastpitch17]

I understand that first the flight attendant should move people around if the ones at the emergency exits don't muster up to what is required and that if passengers find that the ones sitting there are not really qualified, they can request they are moved. With airlines around here charging additional for the leg room at the exits, I bet you would get a big argument if someone was told they would need to change seats after paying more for them. I would feel sorry for the kids after the fact if they were sitting in exit seats and get run over by people that could get the doors open if the situation should arise. I doubt there would be any, "please excuse me while I get in front of you to open the door" conversations.

 

[Anglian]

One of the funniest sights is watching very large fat eygiptian ladies and kids board the Riyadh to Cairo flight, as it's Saudi women come first, initially when the service first started the coach would drive up to the steps, all these fat ladies and screaming kids would pile out and fight to get on the 747 as though it was the last flight to Cairo, it was like a Rugby scrum, kicking and fighting at the bottom of the stairs, the poor Saudis trying to separate them, eventually all the women were on board, then the men turned up, a repeat performance, eventually after two weeks of this the Saudis wised up and the coach stopped 100 yards from the stairs, the doors of the coach opened and all these fat ladies rolled out, still kicking and fighting, falling over in a mad dash to the stairs, it was survival of the fittest, but it stopped the bottle neck at the bottom of the stairs