Mobil Rakyat...new cars

[Jaime C]

My wife stopped by a Toyota dealer today. It looks like the Innova is a bit too high for easy entry for me.

She looked at the 2023 Veloz, which I guess is a new luxury spinoff from their Avanza line, instead of just a sub model. It seems to have a lot more standard features than the Livina. They do have a 6 airbag version on their topline Q TSS, which includes blind spot mirror, automatic braking and a few other things for about 21 juta more. I don’t know if this model is readily available, though.

I am a big safety guy, in particular for 6 airbags. They’re supposed to bring one by the house tomorrow, for me to see if I fit in it easily. I recall older Toyotas not having sufficiently long seatbelts for me.

Front and rear disc brakes, CVT transmission, 1.5 L engine, push to start button, remote fobs, wireless device charging are all things that seemed like good features on this vehicle. As this is a new model, I don’t think they are discounting much. The Q model was 10-15 juta less on promo.

I’m going to compare it to the standard Avanza models tonight.

 

[jstar]

the 2023 Veloz

Yeah they made it a (more luxurious) model next to the Avanza.

Don’t forget there are more cars with 6 airbags now. Two big competitors in the same class that I would definitely consider which have similar safety features, are:

1. Daihatsu Xenia, which is in fact the same car but somewhat cheaper. Many Indonesians won’t consider this brand since they ….. in fact I can’t understand their rationale.

2. Honda BR-V, also brand new (it changed a lot) and car of the year 2022, price is comparable. In addition to standard safety and security features such as airbags, Hill Start Assist (HSA), Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA), ABS + EBD, and others, the BR-V also has the so called Honda Sensing. But you need to check which versions offer that.

I copied some stuff from the Honda brochure:
There are six features included in the Honda Sensing package.

Lead Car Departure Notification System (LCDN)
The LCDN feature informs the driver when the vehicle in front of him is leaving. Great in macet.

Collision Mitigation Brake System (CMBS)
Through the CMBS feature, you’ll get a warning if the system sees a potential frontal collision. Also, it can help reduce vehicle speed.

Lane Keeping Assist System (LKAS)
Provides warnings to the driver in the form of vibrations and visuals if the vehicle detects it’s leaving the lane. Quite useless in Indonesian cities.

Road Departure Mitigation (RDM)
The RDM makes automatic corrections to the steering wheel when the vehicle goes out of lane.

Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC)
Helps reduce speed and even applies full braking if the vehicle in front stops. To maintain a safe distance between you and the other vehicles.

Auto-High Beam
Change the high beam to low beam when the system detects another vehicle coming from the opposite direction.

 

[Jaime C]

Yes, we have those Honda Sensing features on our 2017 US Honda CRV. I thought the Honda BR-V was a bit shorter than the CRV. I know the CRV in Indonesia is pretty expensive. I’m hoping to spend 300 Juta or less, but we’ll see.

It is great that newer Indonesian models have more safety features.

The Veloz, Avanza and Xenia all seem to have more advanced safety stuff. At a quick glance, the main difference between the Xenia/Avanza and Veloz versions was the front and rear disc brakes on the Veloz. There‘s some minor stuff, like a panoramic view camera on the Veloz.

I‘ve always heard that the Toyota and Daihatsu models are basically the same, top to bottom. Looking at top end models, the Daihatsu is 275, Avanza 300, and Xenia 331.

I know the Nissan dealer discounted the Livina 40 Juta. I think the Toyota dealer offered 10 juta or so discount.

 

[jstar]

A bit more background on the separation of Veloz and Avanza:

First let’s look at the global situation; And-perhaps weirdly enough- I’m starting with Daihatsu. Daihatsu is a very old company, it started in 1907. Under pressure of the Japanese government Toyota’s share of the company has increased during the previous decades and currently they ‘own‘ Daihatsu. Unlike other markets as Japan and ((formerly) Europe, where the Daihatsu’s are rather unique, in Indonesia Daihatsu and Toyota have been producing quite some ‘identical’ twin models. The marketing is rather simple; we position Toyota a bit higher and Daihatsu is more of a budget brand.

A small but important piece of side information: Here in Indonesia you must have seen the name Astra. It is the largest independent automotive group in Southeast Asia. It has its own factories, it is the sole distributor of Toyota, Daihatsu, Isuzu and Peugeot, as well as a manufacturer and distributor of Honda motorcycles. They offer financial services and have other businesses, you get my drift; it’s huge.

There are five twin models of Toyota and Daihatsu in Indonesia; the Avanza-Xenia,
Rocky-Raize, Ayla-Agya, Sigra-Calya and Terios-Rush. These are all are produced by an entity which is called PT ADM (Astra Daihatsu Motor) factory. Meanwhile, the Toyota factory (TMMIN) in West Java is producing the Fortuner, Innova, Vios, Yaris and Sienta.

Now, Toyota had the brilliant plan to export the Avanza, just like they did with the Innova. But, there are some potential issues there with equipment and options, perhaps even build quality. Most importantly and what it complicates even more, is that ADM production facility which is not owned by Toyota Motors but a joint venture between Astra, Daihatsu and Toyota Tsusho. You can imagine that it can become a nightmare, not only for production planning but esp. the financial setup. Toyota Motors wants to sell (and distribute) the car herself.

They can not separate the twins, the separation Toyota/Daihatsu for the five models for the Indonesian market is not feasible. So, it made perfect sense to take the top of the line Veloz, make it a separate model, and move its production to Toyota factory (TMMIN). So Toyota is the sole owner, manufacturer, exporter and distributor of the cars.

Will that mean the Veloz and the Avanza will grow further apart in the future? Possibly. Perhaps on design but also on features and options but even engines and emissions.

 

[Hawk256]

I know the Nissan dealer discounted the Livina 40 Juta. I think the Toyota dealer offered 10 juta or so discount.

What I basically found out while shopping for Toyotas was that the dealers in Indondisia have "agreements" with each other about how much they will discount (and it's not much). Our banker give us a way around that if we bought through him. We could get the "maximum" discount from the Toyota Dealer and he would offer cash back on top of that. One Toyota dealer let me walk after offering 0 discount on a 2023 Innova. The best they could do was a 9 juta discount on a new 2022 that was still in stock. Without going into a long, off topic story, we ended up cancelling our purchase all together when a different dealer showed up to our house to deliver the car and wanted more than we had already agreeed upon. A few days later he backed down some but not all the way. Told them to shove off.

 

[jstar]

I remember that approx. five years ago they changed the sales model in the country to make it more efficient. But it had a negative impact on margins.

So Astra and Toyota Astra Motor (TAM, a joint venture) signed an agreement and decided that car sales had to go through TAM.

Prior to the rearrangement, Auto 2000 (which is obviously also Astra) distributed cars to Astra dealers and other sub-dealers and could sell directly to consumers. After the agreement all distribution had to go through TAM which would distribute Toyota products to five main dealers (including Auto 2000 so they got kind of demoted).

Those five main dealers could sell their products to sub-dealers who would pass them on to consumers. You can imagine with this extra step in the chain discounts and margins all became somewhat scrutinized.

 

[Hawk256]

I remember that approx. five years ago they changed the sales model in the country to make it more efficient. But it had a negative impact on margins.

So Astra and Toyota Astra Motor (TAM, a joint venture) signed an agreement and decided that car sales had to go through TAM.

Prior to the rearrangement, Auto 2000 (which is obviously also Astra) distributed cars to Astra dealers and other sub-dealers and could sell directly to consumers. After the agreement all distribution had to go through TAM which would distribute Toyota products to five main dealers (including Auto 2000 so they got kind of demoted).

Those five main dealers could sell their products to sub-dealers who would pass them on to consumers. You can imagine with this extra step in the chain discounts and margins all became somewhat scrutinized.

I assume that's why other car brands can offer a much larger discount. We got a 40 juta discount when we bought our BR-V 4 years ago. Mazda was throwing out some crazy discounts on their cars around that time as well.

 

[jstar]

A lot depends on whether the model is new (i.e. popular) or not, but for the biggest discounts one normally shops at Mazda, Nissan and Suzuki. I don’t know how it is with the Koreans.

 

[Jaime C]

The sales lady dropped by today, and we got to check the Veloz Q TSS model out. It’s got lots of fun features on. Seems pretty comfortable. Seatbelt in the second row seat was a bit tight, for my Buddha-like physique. Legroom was decent.

They say the Bandung list price is 333 juta.

My wife said she’d rather walk than buy a Xenia. Seems a lot of brand discrimination here.

 

[jstar]

My wife said she’d rather walk than buy a Xenia. Seems a lot of brand discrimination here.

Personally I think it has to do with gengsi. But to each their own of course. My brother in law, as so many Indonesians, only buys Toyota or Honda. I have family-in-law that does not want to be found dead in any other car than a Lexus, they even got me a great deal so I would take one instead of the Pajero Sport I wanted.

Everybody is entitled to …eh my opinion , so here it goes:
If I would have a physical disability (as my mother in law) or with elderly or small children I would look for a car with a sliding door for its ease of use. Then a Voxy, Nav1, Sienta or Freed makes sense if you don’t want to go too big.
As I stated before; if I would be in the market for one of the ‘twin’ cars from the two, I would go for the Daihatsu but I realize there will be a veto. The exception could be the Veloz but I think the current model is (still) too much of an Avanza clone and in the end probably not worth it. This could change in the future, compare it a bit with Citroën / DS and Toyota / Lexus; it all started with practically identical cars.
If I wouldn’t need the third row, and the car should not be too big I would go for the HR-V since it has the 60/40 2nd-row magic seat® which is great for taking a bicycle or a wheelchair for instance.

Quite many considerations.

 

[snpark]

Just had grab today one of those Wulang things big spacious leather a/c in back etc
Amaz?

 

[jstar]

Yes, Almaz.

The reason why they call it the intelligent digital car? It has OTA capabilities, where the updates etc. take place via your cell phone. Then there’s an app that allows you to remotely start the engine, open doors, turn on aircon, integrates gps etc. There’s a sensing system similar to that of Honda/Toyota/…
And last but not least there are voice commands in Indonesian!

An ideal opportunity to practice Bahasa Indonesia while driving!!!

 

[Hawk256]

The reason why they call it the intelligent digital car? It has OTA capabilities, where the updates etc. take place via your cell phone. Then there’s an app that allows you to remotely start the engine, open doors, turn on aircon, integrates gps etc. There’s a sensing system similar to that of Honda/Toyota/…
And last but not least there are voice commands in Indonesian!

Sounds good until they start charging a subscription price for all those options instead of a one time purchase. Too many manufacturers already starting down that path.

 

[snpark]

Actually it says it was a Wuling Confero?

 

[jstar]

Actually it says it was a Wuling Confero?

El cheapo

You could say one plays more in the Innova class while the other comparable is to cars in the Avanza/Ertiga/Livina group.

 

[Hawk256]

The few people that I know that bought a Wuling have severtly regretted it. Not trying to knock them but it is what it is. One had the transmission go out in less than a year, one had the air condtiong go out in 3 months and the other has had numerous electrical problems. As far as I know the first two were repaired under warranty but Wulingt wasn't fast about fixing them and the elecrical problems are still ongoing for the 3rd.

 

[Jaime C]

Well, we don’t have a real need for a sliding side door. I have mobility issues, but can get into the second row of the Toyota or Livina with no problem. Most of my problems are with vehicles that are high, captain seats, etc.

My FIL has a fold-up wheelchair, but that can fit in the back, fine. I have a large and heavy electric wheelchair that we always have to get separate transport for.

The Toyota dealer today went over our old Livina for a trade in value, and lowballed us at 70 jt.

I liked this Veloz model. Seats seemed comfortable. Lots of bells and whistles. Definitely has a lot more safety features.

My wife stopped by the Nissan dealer we bought the car from in 2012. Seems all the cars they have were produced in 2022. Even though the Nissan website doesn’t mention it, the standard white color had a 1.5 jt surcharge. They do offer a 1% additional discount if you pay through Tokopedia.

My wife is fine with the Nissan top model at 278.5 jt. The Toyota Veloz TSS model is 316 jt. I always try to go with the vehicle that has the best safety features, if it’s affordable. I guess we’ll see what happens. Doesn’t seem to be much bargaining happening.

There is some sort of mall showing tomorrow for Toyota. I’m not sure if they offer anything special there or not.

Thanks again to everyone who has offered info and suggestions.

 

[Hawk256]

Even though the Nissan website doesn’t mention it, the standard white color had a 1.5 jt surcharge.

According to the dealer? The tried to pull that with me with the Toyota but they said it was for silver because my wife wanted it instead of white. Whatever color you choose will have a surcharge according to them. There are certian colors that do have a surcharge but they should be clearly listed on the manufacturers page as "premium" or something similar. My experinces with car dealers (and motorbike dealers for that matter) here have been less than ideal. At least on a motorbike they are limited on how much they can gouge you for.

 

[jstar]

Normally a ‘solid’ color is free (or at least much cheaper) since it’s much easier to produce. In other parts of the world they select one or two as free standard color. And that is communicated in all price lists. In Indonesia? Forget it. You’ll be lucky to find the price difference (if there is one) between the available colors. Only the premium European brands are somewhat more clear on that.

Now with many cars as the Veloz for instance, they avoid that solid paint ‘problem’ by only offering non solids. Even black is metallic, grey does not exist but is silver mica and white is platinum white pearl. (A pearlescent is a bit different from metallic.)

In the Benelux, this yellow is the standard free color on the Peugeot 208.

 

[Jaime C]

The last Nissan dealer produced literature that had the white surcharge listed. I haven’t noticed any mention online.