War

[Balifrog]

So have France and the UK, even more often in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries.

I said, "in the last 70 years".
Don't start with France's or UK's ex colonial empire, a completely different topic.
Our last intervention in Mali (2013) , was on demand of the Mali government which was at risk to have their capital overrun by Islamist rebels.

Even if in that case :

• that government was a little "dubious" having just come to power by a coup.
• France should have bailed out after chasing back and dealt a deadly blow to the rebel movement. Instead politicians decided we should stay, and we went in an "Afghan" situation. Now solved anyway.

In Ukraine case :
NATO is guilty of having enerved / provoced Russia by extending to the East, in contradiction to promesses made in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union.
NATO did this being manipulated (as they still are) by the US. US government being manipulated by the powerfulle militaro industrial lobby.
So yes, at a moment Vladimir said "enough is enough".
The puppet comedian Ukraine president put in place (with a bit of help by the CIA...) has not helped the situation.
Concerning the role of the US in helping overthrowing the (pro Russia) Ukraine president please Google " role of the US in the Maidan revolution"

Plenty returns, among which :

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

Redirect Notice

Moreover :
NATO should have been disbanded after the fall of the USSR, the latter being it's only reason of creation / existence.
NATO was created as a strictly defensive organisation against a possible attack from the USSR.
It turned into an agressive organisation (Ex Yougoslavia, Albania, Afghanistan (where it had zero business) and later extending to the East.
IMO had NATO been disbanded after the fall of the USSR, it would have allowed for Europe to organize itself an "European defense force" completely independant from the US. But of course the US definitively did NOT want that. They were/ are already upset enough that we dared to create the E.U. ! But that again would be another topic.

 

[scouser59]

Unfortunately , like in ww2 ,there seems to be a number of apologists for the dictator , a sad situation while the blood of the ukranians lies on the ground .

 

[Balifrog]

Unfortunately , like in ww2 ,there seems to be a number of apologists for the dictator , a sad situation while the blood of the ukranians lies on the ground .

Yep, same as the bloodbath caused by the great liberator USA in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Irak and a dozen more countries....

Global death toll probably over a million
Global wounded and maimed for live probably over a million
Displaced, deported, refugees in the several millions....

Putin is a small player compared to that !

 

[fastpitch17]

If Ukraine become member of NATO, Ukraine could attempt to retake Crimea, and it could become a bigger war between NATO and Russia.

Ukraine was shelling Donbass before Russia recognize the independence of the two republics and send forces across the border. Al Jazeera had a reporter in Donbass who reported that Ukrainian forces were attacking the region, but no other media is reporting it. Why did Ukraine attack the separatist forces all of a sudden (amid talks of impending Russian invasion)? Now they have to face the Russian military for real.

If Ukrainebevame a member of NATO and tried to retake Crimea they would not get NATO support. Article 5 is if attacked, not doing the attacking.

Ukranians have been fighting Russian supported separatists since 2014 in Donbass. This is not a new thing. 8 years and the Russian separatists haven't had much advancement and Putin sends in troops under the claim of peacekeepers. Peacekeepers that are now attacking civilian and military targets throughout the nation if Ukraine.

 

[Bob]

I said, "in the last 70 years".
Don't start with France's or UK's ex colonial empire, a completely different topic.
Our last intervention in Mali (2013) , was on demand of the Mali government which was at risk to have their capital overrun by Islamist rebels.

Even if in that case :

• that government was a little "dubious" having just come to power by a coup.
• France should have bailed out after chasing back and dealt a deadly blow to the rebel movement. Instead politicians decided we should stay, and we went in an "Afghan" situation. Now solved anyway.

In Ukraine case :
NATO is guilty of having enerved / provoced Russia by extending to the East, in contradiction to promesses made in 1991 after the fall of the Soviet Union.
NATO did this being manipulated (as they still are) by the US. US government being manipulated by the powerfulle militaro industrial lobby.
So yes, at a moment Vladimir said "enough is enough".
The puppet comedian Ukraine president put in place (with a bit of help by the CIA...) has not helped the situation.
Concerning the role of the US in helping overthrowing the (pro Russia) Ukraine president please Google " role of the US in the Maidan revolution"

Plenty returns, among which :

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

Redirect Notice

Moreover :
NATO should have been disbanded after the fall of the USSR, the latter being it's only reason of creation / existence.
NATO was created as a strictly defensive organisation against a possible attack from the USSR.
It turned into an agressive organisation (Ex Yougoslavia, Albania, Afghanistan (where it had zero business) and later extending to the East.
IMO had NATO been disbanded after the fall of the USSR, it would have allowed for Europe to organize itself an "European defense force" completely independant from the US. But of course the US definitively did NOT want that. They were/ are already upset enough that we dared to create the E.U. ! But that again would be another topic.

It seems you're excusing (or praising?) Russia for doing the same thing you criticise the US for, targeting a country with leadership they don't like and invading it for specious reasons. (Don't forget the US' partners in many of those invasions.)
As Ukraine is sovereign, shouldn't they be able to join or not join NATO or the book of the month club as they wish? Is it Putin's prerogative to decide that himself? What's his next move after Ukraine, the Baltics? This invasion is just naked agression and to me can't be justified.

 

[fastpitch17]

Unfortunately , like in ww2 ,there seems to be a number of apologists for the dictator , a sad situation while the blood of the ukranians lies on the ground .

True that. All this little men dictators out there thinking they have more power than they actually have do have their apologist out. These dictators biggest fear is Democracy so one has to wonder about all these apologists and where they are residing? Seems to be in Democratic areas so I have to wonder why. They should be living under government that suit their ideas better than thise dredded Democracies. I do not know how they live with themselves or is their intention to undermind Democracy like their idols would like?

 

[Balifrog]

If Ukrainebevame a member of NATO and tried to retake Crimea they would not get NATO support. Article 5 is if attacked, not doing the attacking.

Ukranians have been fighting Russian supported separatists since 2014 in Donbass. This is not a new thing. 8 years and the Russian separatists haven't had much advancement and Putin sends in troops under the claim of peacekeepers. Peacekeepers that are now attacking civilian and military targets throughout the nation if Ukraine.

Since 2014 there was no way Ukraine could have joined NATO because of this clause :
" To join NATO, countries must first be offered a membership action plan, a formal invitation and a tailored road map for future membership. To obtain such a plan, prospective members must first peacefully resolve outstanding international, ethnic and territorial disputes"

As long as UKR didn't solve their Dombass problems, they didn't fit in the rules.
It's as simple as that. So forget that option.

 

[Balifrog]

It seems you're excusing (or praising?) Russia for doing the same thing you criticise the US for, targeting a country with leadership they don't like and invading it for specious reasons. (Don't forget the US' partners in many of those invasions.)
As Ukraine is sovereign, shouldn't they be able to join or not join NATO or the book of the month club as they wish? Is it Putin's prerogative to decide that himself? What's his next move after Ukraine, the Baltics? This invasion is just naked agression and to me can't be justified.

Some people in NATO and the US knew since long time that any attempts to have UKR join NATO would create a major issue with Russia.
And NATO's role is a defensive one, to preserve peace, not to wave red flags and create potential conflictual situations.

Please read :

Biden’s CIA Director Doesn’t Believe Biden’s Story about Ukraine

A conversation about American foreign policy, Palestinian freedom and the Jewish people.

peterbeinart.substack.com

As the Bush administration moved toward opening NATO’s doors to Ukraine, Burns’ warnings about a Russian backlash grew even starker. He told Rice it was “hard to overstate the strategic consequences” of offering NATO membership to Ukraine and predicted that “it will create fertile soil for Russian meddling in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.” Although Burns couldn’t have predicted the specific kind of meddling Putin would employ—either in 2014 when he seized Crimea and fomented a rebellion in Ukraine’s east or today—he warned that the US was helping set in motion the kind of crisis that America faces today. Promise Ukraine membership in NATO, he wrote, and “There could be no doubt that Putin would fight back hard.”

But the US tought they would got away with it. Anyway, in all honesty US doesn't give a shit about other nations. They know that anyway, they are 1000's of miles away with an Ocean on both sides, and nothing will come back to them.....

 

[El_Goretto]

Here we go again with whataboutism. 2 wrongs don't make 1 right. The topic here is Ukraine and Russia.

Now, onto the question of NATO, if the option of one country joining it is seen as an aggression/provocation to Russia, then it legitimizes the existence of NATO even more IMO.

I'm of the opinion that Russia has no say in what Ukraine does as long as its not a direct threat to Russia.

And what about threats? There are already a number of NATO countries sharing a border with Russia. But even then, what is Russia worried about? Any attack by NATO on Russia would probably lead to nuclear war and everyone knows it. I don't believer for one second that there is any credible threat from NATO aside from protecting former soviet union states that Putin would like to keep an influence on. And that's all this is really about.

 

[Balifrog]

Here we go again with whataboutism. 2 wrongs don't make 1 right. The topic here is Ukraine and Russia.

Now, onto the question of NATO, if the option of one country joining it is seen as an aggression/provocation to Russia, then it legitimizes the existence of NATO even more IMO.

I'm of the opinion that Russia has no say in what Ukraine does as long as its not a direct threat to Russia.

And what about threats? There are already a number of NATO countries sharing a border with Russia. But even then, what is Russia worried about? Any attack by NATO on Russia would probably lead to nuclear war and everyone knows it. I don't believer for one second that there is any credible threat from NATO aside from protecting former soviet union states that Putin would like to keep an influence on. And that's all this is really about.

To make it short :

Remember the Cuba missile crisis and the US reaction ? Tentative invasion of Cuba, multiple tentatives to kill Castro ...

Now if TODAY, say the Mexican government enters in a commercial brawl with the US and decides to commerce mainly with China now, China installing factories in Mexico, building a port where their Navy can dock and where they can keep some troops (c/f Djibouti) how do you think the USA would react ?

They would probably not invade Mexico, but they would do everything they can to trash it economically + massive revenge on Mexican immigrants.

It's not all black and white. Geopolitics is all about grey areas.

Countries have no allies, no friends, only self interest !

Edit : There is an hysterical, and historical paranoid fear (or should I say "hatred") by most Americans for anything that looks like communism. Even nowadays.
And because of that being factual is difficult for many.
Ennemy used to be the USSR, now it is Russia and China.... By default they are always wrong, guilty, the bad guys.

 

[Balifrog]

NOTE : I am not anti US, but I sure have no special admiration for them. I am speaking about the country, the politics, not about individuals.

A very interesting documentary on the US methods. It is from the 1945 to 1980 era, but I don't think much has changed in their tactics. Just a bit more technical, and a bit more discreet.


Plse don't tell me it's off topic ?

 

[R Cameron]

Saying "But America did ___" is the same ignorance as the "All Lives Matter" people during the BLM protest.

 

[fastpitch17]

NATO has never had any plans to attack russia but it is there to protect Eruope from Russian aggression which has grown under putin. It is an admitted fact from putin's lips that he wants to put back in place something that resembles the old Soviet Union. He critisized Stalin for the way he put the Union together and said it should all have become Russia so no one could ever break away or fall apart the way it did. That is his plan and as more of the old soviet nations join NATO putin knows he can't get them without fighting NATO which even putin is smart enough to know that would be a losing decision.

Putin will never fully win in Ukrain. He will attempt to kill some political leaders and assasinate the president but the people will forever fight him with continued death on the russian side. People in russia are already out en mass with very large anti war protest and these will probably grow.

 

[Dave70]

Can you show evidence for that claim? False flag operations would not be the least bit surprising.

Who is the reporter? The only thing I see on Al Jazeera is:
Russian news agencies, meanwhile, reported the separatist forces in Luhansk claimed the Ukraine military escalated fighting.

That was a few days ago (could be last week), not sure when, not on YouTube (internet) but on MNC Vision. I usually don’t watch TV, but just the right time/place when I pass by the living room, the female reporter was airing on the Ukrainian offensive. Anyway, if I find the Al Jazeera report on YouTube, I’ll post it here.

 

[Balifrog]

Saying "But America did ___" is the same ignorance as the "All Lives Matter" people during the BLM protest.

Not "did"...it still does.

It's morning in Europe now, let's see what the day brings.

 

[Dave70]

I'm of the opinion that Russia has no say in what Ukraine does as long as its not a direct threat to Russia.

Yes, it is direct threat to Russia (as I explained on post #16).

• Don’t you think Ukraine would like to regain Crimea as well as Donetsk and Luhansk WHEN they become full NATO member?
• Don’t you think Russia should feel threatened with NATO’s eastward expansion (especially when NATO considered Russia as enemy number one)?
• Didn’t you know that NATO had broken their promise “not to expand an inch towards the east” by admitting the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania)?
• Didn’t you know that Russian speakers are discriminated in Ukraine? After the Ukrainian Revolution, Russian speakers were publicly discriminated and the government tried to curb the use of Russian language by banning imports of books from Russia in February, 2017 which had accounted for up to 60% of all titles sold in Ukraine. >
  

  Racism in Ukraine - Wikipedia

  en.wikipedia.org
• Didn’t you know Ukraine removed the Russian language as one of their official languages? Why can’t they have 2 official languages like other multi-ethnic countries (after all, ethnic Russians are sizable minority and almost all Ukrainians can speak Russian)? No wonder there was uprising in Donbass.

 

[R Cameron]

Yes, it is direct threat to Russia (as I explained on post #16).

• Didn’t you know that NATO had broken their promise “not to expand an inch towards the east” by admitting the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania)?

Was that ever a written agreement? I have read that it was mentioned in closed conversations to bring the USSR back to the negotiating table, but never put in a formal agreement. Gorbachev also says it was never discussed at all: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...ato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

You want to talk about broken deals, how about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum where Russia promised to honor Ukrainian sovereignty and borders in order for Ukraine to give up their nukes?

 

[Dave70]

Was that ever a written agreement? I have read that it was mentioned in closed conversations to bring the USSR back to the negotiating table, but never put in a formal agreement. Gorbachev also says it was never discussed at all: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-f...ato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/

You want to talk about broken deals, how about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum where Russia promised to honor Ukrainian sovereignty and borders in order for Ukraine to give up their nukes?

There was no written agreement, just verbal commitment. And that's the problem.

As far as Russia is concerned, Ukraine is sovereign and independent, no question about that. But this is war between nations. Actually, not an invasion until it is an occupation. Russia just probably wants to secure the borders of the newly-recognized republics. As for Crimea, you know that there was a referendum which voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. No surprise of the result because majority of the populations are ethnic Russians. But Ukraine and the West are not recognizing it.

 

[R Cameron]

There was no written agreement, just verbal commitment. And that's the problem.

That is Russia's problem alone.

As far as Russia is concerned, Ukraine is sovereign and independent, no question about that.

Clearly you did not hear/read Putin's declaration of war.

 

[Dave70]

And what about threats? There are already a number of NATO countries sharing a border with Russia. But even then, what is Russia worried about? Any attack by NATO on Russia would probably lead to nuclear war and everyone knows it. I don't believer for one second that there is any credible threat from NATO aside from protecting former soviet union states that Putin would like to keep an influence on. And that's all this is really about.

Conventional warfare is certainly possible, Putin has publicly declared that Russia will not be the FIRST to use nuclear weapons but will retaliate with the same if an enemy used it on Russia.

Isn't NATO and the West also trying to gain influence on former Soviet states? Did you forget how the Orange Revolution started in Ukraine (and who was behind it)?