America on Fire

[dafluff]

@dafluff
And to back the discussion on track, I consider violence and burning a legitimate mean of the fight, but not effective. Looting, and killing, however, are not means of political fight and they have no excuse.

The violence and looting, if it lasts, and it lasts too long already, will alienate many moderate people, that will accept the so-called law&order, the sooner, the better. Also, the police are required to restrain but at the same time to keep the peace on the streets, which already makes internal conflict-whole unit resigned yesterday after a policeman pushed and an old guy who fell and heart his head-I consider the police having a solid argument here.

The unemployment went down yesterday and signs of economic recovery are present in US-Trump quickly grabbed that and used to change the narrative. He also succeeded to remove the coronavirus lockdowns as the protesters flooded the country and most of the politicians/governors, previously keeping the population at home with a stay at home orders with gloom and doom stories, complained.

Biden gave a statement yesterday, he looked like a tired and old man, and US flags behind him were wrinkled -not presidential at all.

In the end, this situation is likely to pave another term for Trump.

Non-violent methods, statistically, are more effective in reaching a cause, and that was the main mistake here.

The vast majority of the protests are peaceful, and painting it like it isn't is reprehensible. Not that it would matter one iota if 100% of the protest was peaceful. The thing that offends the Trumpists is not the looting, it's that someone of color could demand to be an equal.

If that brings on a second term for Trump, well then it was never preventable to begin with.

PS: The "whole unit" of cops didn't resign, they stepped down from special squad duty. They still collect all salaries and are employed as police officers. They threw this tantrum because two of them were suspended for assaulting a 75+ year old man. This is just more proof how systematically entitled they feel towards use excessive force.

 

[ChrisTex]

It is a mix of the good ol' boy system/mentality(You scratch my back, I scratch yours) and comradery.

Watch enough Law&Order or Blue Bloods, you see there whenever there is an investigation against one of their own.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

""Fight the Power" comes great responsibility
'F the Police' but who's stopping you from killing me?"

lyrics from Public Enemy "Harder than you think"

Public Enemy were very vocal supporters of black rights movements, but they rejected the NWA narrative of open conflict with the police, since after all, there is a huge amount of black on black violence and you need to have a police force to investigate murders, robberies, drugs offences etc. Of course it's better not to have a police force with a lot of psychos and white supremacists in it, but probably the majority of them are decent people trying to do an almost impossible job in a very unequal society where everyone seems to be armed.

 

[rabbit_39]

Just another point of view, right or wrong, with the current situation it puts everyone in a difficult situation. Fear of persecution (even the peace officers) may have prevented them from getting involved in trying to help the man that was pushed by one of their own.

I guess some of us still think that there are enough good people who are in the police force. Yes what we're seeing as the action of a few (too many really) is horrible. No excuses for that. The next step is how do we empower their peers who are good people to have the authority to step in and prevent their fellow officers from doing harm to others. The current policies do not allow that, and it's set up for the officers to favor protecting their own.

How do we change the policies? The root cause is not the institutions (the police force in this case), but rather the policies. The systemic, institutional, structural racism that exist now is a result of the racist policies. There's a really good book all y'alls gotta read. Even if you're rooted in Indonesia or other countries besides the US, the concepts in the book still applies. The book is by Ibram X. Kendi's: How to Be an Antiracist

 

[rabbit_39]

Even just watching this video on the first chapter, or just reading the first chapter of the book there are some really important concepts that should start making us think of how to start solving these issues.

 

[Nimbus]

My brother in law is a fanatical Republican who listens to talk show radio and the like. The narrative that’s being pushed by the right wingers is the protesters have been hijacked by antifa bent on looting and destruction, therefore Trump’s call to quash them using military force (the national guard) is necessary to save the country.

This is straight out of Suharto’s playbook. He did it in 1965, and Prabowo tried to do it in 1998. I guess it’s the standard procedure for a dictator or an aspiring one.

The protesters are separate from the looters. Criminals do blend in with protesters for cover, but that doesn’t make the movement wholly comprised of looters. The vast majority genuinely wants equality and not interested in destruction.

My bro is a really good guy and I love him, so it saddens me tremendously that he chooses to be spoonfed by right wing talk show jockeys. At least he’s still willing to talk to me about it, so he’s not completely tuned out of reason (yet).

 

[ChrisTex]

I have heard the same about antifa hijacking and causing problems, but it was just on social media posts. I have also seen videos where the people protesting have stopped people from vandalizing properties on social media. So there might be some truth to it.

The National Guard isn't anything new. Obama called them in for Fergusen a few years back. I can't remember if they were called in for Baltimore in the same year. Also the National Guard is state base and each state has one. They are usually called in to help with disasters like hurricanes, floodings, etc...

Now if the Army, Marines, Navy, and Air Force are called, then yes, it is something to worry about.

 

[R Cameron]

The narrative that’s being pushed by the right wingers is the protesters have been hijacked by antifa bent on looting and destruction, therefore Trump’s call to quash them using military force (the national guard) is necessary to save the country.

That's not so wild. There is clearly a hijacking of the cause bent on looting and destruction, there is some element of political motive (right pointing at antifa, left pointing at the proud boys), and a whole lot of simple criminal opportunism.

I would prefer the National Guard only arrive when a local police force truly can't handle the situation, and I don't think most places are at that point, but whether it's National Guard or just police in military/riot gear, the important point is that they should be focused solely on the looters and vandals, but there are many, many videos showing blatant targeting and purposeful escalation of peaceful protest by the police and National Guard.

That is where Trump, along with many of his followers, diverge from the rest of the country. He showed it decades ago when praising the massacre at Tiananman Square, “When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak … as being spit on by the rest of the world,” and telling state governors to shut down peaceful protest last week, "it's like a movement, and it's a movement that if you don't put it down, it'll get worse and worse, this is like Occupy Wall Street. It was a disaster until one day, somebody said, that's enough and they just went in and wiped them out and that's the last time we ever heard the name Occupy Wall Street."

 

[harryopal1]

It seems the National Guard shootings at Kent State university have been forgotten. There's a serious danger in under trained forces such as this with a potential to respond badly when called out as Trump is eager to do

Here's a brief run down from Wikipedia. "
The Kent State shootings (also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre),[3][4][5] were the shootings of 13 unarmed Kent State University students in Kent, Ohio, by the Ohio National Guard on May 4, 1970. The killings took place during a peace rally against the expanding involvement of the Vietnam War into neutral Cambodia by United States military forces as well as the National Guard presence on campus. The incident marked the first time that a student had been slain in an anti-war gathering in United States history.

Twenty-eight National Guard soldiers fired approximately 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others. Students Allison Beth Krause, 19, Jeffrey Glenn Miller, 20, Sandra Lee Scheuer, 20, and William Knox Schroeder, 19, were killed and nine others were injured, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis. All perished at the scene except Schroeder, who was pronounced dead at Robinson Memorial Hospital in nearby Ravenna shortly afterward.[6][7]"


s

 

[Nimbus]

I’m sure some protests are infiltrated by unsavory elements that turns to looting, but Trump is trying to paint ALL of them as agents of destruction. That is a typical authoritarian message unfit for an American president.

 

[Nimbus]

The Minneapolis Police Union leader says that the Black Lives Matter movement is a terrorist organization.

MPD Union Leader: 'Black Lives Matter Is A Terrorist Organization'

The president of Minneapolis Police's union says the officers involved in the fatal shooting of Jamar Clark are vindicated after a federal investigation cleared them of any wrongdoing.

minnesota.cbslocal.com

This officer is part of the problem.

Hopeful that Minneapolis policing will change? Meet the police union's chief ...

Bob Kroll, who described George Floyd as a ‘violent criminal’, has a history of resisting any reform of a department with a history of racial abuse

www.theguardian.com

 

[R Cameron]

The Minneapolis Police Union leader says that the Black Lives Matter movement is a terrorist organization.

MPD Union Leader: 'Black Lives Matter Is A Terrorist Organization'

The president of Minneapolis Police's union says the officers involved in the fatal shooting of Jamar Clark are vindicated after a federal investigation cleared them of any wrongdoing.

minnesota.cbslocal.com

This officer is part of the problem.

Hopeful that Minneapolis policing will change? Meet the police union's chief ...

Bob Kroll, who described George Floyd as a ‘violent criminal’, has a history of resisting any reform of a department with a history of racial abuse

www.theguardian.com

The first link is to a 2016 article, and to be fair to him, it was a much more violent movement at that time, so calling it "terrorist" isn't as much of a stretch.

However, the second (Guardian) article is current and very astute to be bringing attention to his role as the head of the police union in shaping how things might change, or not. Police unions are a huge part of the larger policing problem and really should be in the spotlight.

 

[Nimbus]

The first link is to a 2016 article, and to be fair to him, it was a much more violent movement at that time, so calling it "terrorist" isn't as much of a stretch.

However, the second (Guardian) article is current and very astute to be bringing attention to his role as the head of the police union in shaping how things might change, or not. Police unions are a huge part of the larger policing problem and really should be in the spotlight.

I remember the old BLM movement. It was loud, but it wasn’t violent. The problem back then was the same as today, opportunistic criminals tagged along and looked for chances to make profit by looting businesses.

His use of the word ‘terrorists’ is wholly inappropriate, in my opinion.

 

[R Cameron]

@Nimbus I was thinking of the two men that targeted and killed 8 police officers in Dallas and Baton Rouge, but I checked those dates and the date of the article you linked, and the shootings were actually about a month after the article you posted. So fair enough, the violence I was remembering hadn't happened yet, so I'm not sure if there were specific 'terroristic' acts he had in mind.

(Again, not defending him calling BLM terrorists just saying that perhaps it was more justified then than now, but still never justified. And definitely not saying the two cop-killers represent the vast majority of BLM.)

 

[fastpitch17]

I am totally against any destruction of property and looting but one can hardly place blame on BLM. The far majority of their followers are out there peacefully protesting. They are hardly a terrorist group. Not saying they don't have a few followers who have more intent to bring harm to others than peacefully protesters but what about many of the instigators?

How many videos are people going to sweep under the carpet showing white people being the first to break windows. Some of them are dressed in tactical gear. So many times the whites are right up front starting the destruction. How many times do you need to see a black individual arrested while peacefully protesting while the white people standing next to them protesting are not even spoken to? How many times do you need to see peaceful protesters hearded into a no exit area where police open fire with tear gas and pepper pellets. How many street clearing using tear gas, pepper pellets, and rubber bullets of peaceful protesters so a president can have a phony photo op for his Evangelical followers? How many journalist does it take getting attacked for doing their jobs? Is that a new American standard or just another police action that should be addressed? How many times does one need to hear about a black person being roughed up after a simple traffic stop or a created traffic stop. How many blacks have been killed by police by heavy handness or down right aggression against them for no reason? How many times are you going to ignor the reporting that white supreamist groups are creating far left web sites to misinform people and instigate trouble? How many times are you going to listen to a president who wants to put blame on far left groups like Antifa when the evidence points right at far right instigators? Should they tire of it? Of course. Should they try to get things changed? They have but have only gotten lip service. Does their come a tipping point? You are witnessing it and now some in the States are adapting some changes.

The Minneapolis Mayor had outlawed tactical training for police. The chief ignored that order and kept it going. Police forces in the US suffer from systemic racism. They desperately need to get cleaned up and thise that can not follow the new policies, need to go. The police unions are strong but they too need to clean up and stop protecting all when there are bad cops. Bills are being submitted in Washington to set phycological requirements for police nation wide. A national register of police that have been involved in any wrong doing so they can't be rehired in the next city over. Most likely these bills will be voted down by the Republicans in the Senate. All this presidential talk of law and order leaves out the most important aspect. The Rule of Law. Tries to sidestep the US Constitution too.

The thing is, blacks have finally had enough. Many White Americans have also admitted the injustices. A large majority want to see Equal Rights for all. There have always been racist, there are still racist, and there will always be racist. They just do not need to be in police departments or hold any government office no matter the level. They need to be shunned for what they are.

 

[Ruserious]

John Oliver was an interesting watch this week on the subject:



Edit: Some strong language so i guess it should be tagged NSFW.

 

[dafluff]

Funny quote I read somewhere on the interwebs today: The police have been treating white people like they do black people for a week, and now people want them abolished.

Now honestly, if you asked me a week ago if abolishing police was a good idea, I'd tell you, without thinking, that you are nuts.

But then I think back to the situation here in Indonesia, and in my entire time here, the police has not helped me, or anyone I know for any reason. In fact, multiple times the police here had made life more difficult. Indonesians in general go out of their way to not deal with the police.

 

[centurion]

The US really looks like a huge, open-air insane asylum right now. Story from several angles, so you can judge by yourself:

UCLA Professor Placed on Leave After Rejecting Special Treatment for Black Students

www.theepochtimes.com

Racially Insensitive Email Leads To Calls For Firing Of A UCLA Anderson Prof

Gordon Klein, a UCLA Anderson professor, has been called out for his reponse to a student asking for accomodations for an exam in light of the civil unrest

poetsandquants.com

Students sign petition to fire UCLA lecturer after many find his email insensitive - Daily Bruin

This post was updated June 5 at 1:35 p.m. Editor’s note: This post was updated to include statements from the email Gordon Klein sent to students.

dailybruin.com

 

[dafluff]

UCLA Professor Placed on Leave After Rejecting Special Treatment for Black Students

www.theepochtimes.com

What a misleading headline. It should be, "placed on leave for lapse of judgement". All he had to do was write something along the line of "Hi, thanks for the suggestion, however at this time I am unable to consider this", but instead he wrote a long ridiculous argument and belittled his student.

Should he be fired/suspended over it? No. But he was definitely not placed on leave for rejecting special treatment.

 

[ponyexpress]

What also scary and disturbing is how right leaning black people such as Candace Owens and Brandon Tatum spout their views on BLM movement and dismiss that systemic racism does exist. This does not exclusively happen in the US. Some right wing indigenous activists in Australia also doubt that black indigenous people died in custody and some just blew it out of proportion for their political agenda. Many people quickly take this type of view as alternative truth. But there seems to be a pattern where these people are also anti vaccination, supporting Trump leadership, watching Tucker Carlson and proponent of conspiracy theory about the relationship between covid 19 and 5G.