Are you an expat or an immigrant?

[ukcouple]

.. I also don't understand the fascination with whether anyone (as a foreigner immigrating here) would be considered "Indonesian" at least in the first generation - of course someone not native to Indonesia will not be accepted as "Indonesian". And even second generation...

Exactly.. second generation...third generation.. forth generation. and so on. Even the Indonesian Chinese after so many generations here are not considered "proper" Indonesians. And perhaps they never will be.

Yes, of course.. it's an ethnic, racial, prebumi thing.

In this part of the world (Indonesia, Thailand, China, Japan etc) there is a strong ethnic and national identity and pride that was lost in the US and Europe after the second world war.

 

[atlantis]

You may consider yourself an immigrant but as far as the locals are concerned you will always be Mister or Misses Bule.

Sorry but this is a generalization which ignores some part of Indonesia. it is undoubtedly true in Jawa, Bali and many other places but it is ridiculous for other regions.

Just to give you a quick example, in my region a guy who has become Indonesian a decade ago has been elected pala by the resident of his area. A pala is the equivalent of pak RT in many other places. I know about another similar case in the Maluku. Last time I've heard someone calling me "bule"? Well, I can't even remember.

My region is also one of the rare region in Indonesia were you would never hear an Indonesian of Chinese descent complaining about discrimination or having his indonesianity questionned.

Keep in mind that in some region, many Indonesian have a lot of their ancestor who are European. It is the case for the Minahasan. Heck! if you would be visiting the highlands here, you may be confused and would have the impression on a first look that a lot of European retirees have settled here. They are just old Minahasan and believe me, no one call them "bule".

 

[waarmstrong]

...In this part of the world (Indonesia, Thailand, China, Japan etc) there is a strong ethnic and national identity and pride that was lost in the US and Europe after the second world war.

I don't know where you get off suggesting that Americans are somehow without a national identity and are no longer proud to be Americans. Asinine statements like the above, make all your comments suspect.

 

[Vanhelsing]

It might help is you actually READ peoples post before commenting.

Your shoot from the hip replies are becoming tiresome.

You have been around in these forums for a long long time and seem to have a developed "grumpy old man" problem.

Your aggressive attitude has been noted by others.

I'm having deja vu.

I don't know, I'd have a pint with waarmstrong. *giggle*

Vent your spleen in the cage, it's therapeutic.

 

[ukcouple]

I'm having deja vu.

I don't know, I'd have a pint with waarmstrong. *giggle*

Vent your spleen in the cage, it's therapeutic.

Nice one.!!! Especially the bit about having a pint with waarmstrong.

No point in continuing in the cage though. Nothing really to talk about.

Anyway, waarmstrong is probably having his usual afternoon nap at the moment, getting ready to trash the evening posts, and planning his reply to me.

Wouldn't want to wake him up.

 

[Wisnu]

according to depnaker - I'm a TKI and many of you are TKA

 

[fastpitch17]

according to depnaker - I'm a TKI and many of you are TKA

Every one else says I'm a WNA

 

[ukcouple]

... Last time I've heard someone calling me "bule"? Well, I can't even remember.

My region is also one of the rare region in Indonesia were you would never hear an Indonesian of Chinese descent complaining about discrimination or having his indonesianity questionned..

You are lucky to be living where do.

Jakarta is not so tolerant and peaceful.

 

[atlantis]

You are lucky to be living where do.

Jakarta is not so tolerant and peaceful.

I wouldn't say that I am lucky. I have chosen to immigrate where I did, and it has little to do with luck. The possibility of assimilation has been an important part in my decision to settle where I did. As much as I love my wife, I would have never settled in a place where, despite contributing to its development, I am not considered equal to those who have been living here for generations. I don't criticize the choice of anyone who has chosen to settle in a place he knew he would be all his life a stranger, but I know I wouldn't have been able to.

Jakarta is not so tolerant and peaceful, no one would challenge this. However generalizing what Jakarta may be to the whole Indonesia would be an offensive generalization for these Indonesian who are much more open minded and tolerant than some of the breed you may find in Jakarta.

 

[ukcouple]

... Jakarta is not so tolerant and peaceful, no one would challenge this. However generalizing what Jakarta may be to the whole Indonesia would be an offensive generalization for these Indonesian who are much more open minded and tolerant than some of the breed you may find in Jakarta.

Yes of course.. but there are many good open minded and tolerant people in Jakarta too, but it attracts more than its fair share of religious bigots and racists, as any capital city does.

There are a lot worse places though.

 

[atlantis]

Yes of course.. but there are many good open minded and tolerant people in Jakarta too,

Of course, there are, and i even think they are a majority... Hey, Ahok is still high in the polls, and has been accepted as Governor for some years, despite being an Indonesian of Chinese descent and a Christian.

 

[ukcouple]

... Hey, Ahok is still high in the polls, and has been accepted has Governor for some years...

It's not certain what happens to his Governorship if he is convicted though.. if the baying mob has it's way he could be imprisoned.

 

[Daniel50]

I suppose the longer I lived in Indonesia the more I would grow roots and feel connected. During this process I might be more concerned about who I am in relation to Indonesia, if I wanted to stay permanently. If not it wouldn't matter as much whether I believe I am accepted. The longer I live here the more like home it could seem, or the more I could grow to dislike it and to long for elsewhere. It really depends on the individual, what they are looking for and their circumstances.
Without a formal definition I don't really see myself as an "expat" I tend to think of expats more as people here on assignment, working for a company. I am just a regular guy, who is living in Indonesia for now. I may live elsewhere for a while and I may live here again in the future. Even though there is some religious craziness going on it doesn't really put me off living in Jakarta or suburbs. It has not progressed to dangerous levels for me. I still see Indonesia as a fairly safe place but there are some real dark characters historically and currently who would like to steer the country wherever their self/family interests would allow and it is not for the benefit of the people. For me this is the sad part. I do find most Indonesians to be respectful and I wish their lives could be improved by those in charge but I am afraid this will not be the case.

 

[godmachine12]

I've been considering changing my citizenship to Indonesian and that made me wonder... what's the difference between an expat and an immigrant?

I haven't bothered to read the other pages of posts so forgive me if someone has beaten me to it. Simply put an emigrant (or 'immigrant' if you will) is someone who leaves his or her own country in order to settle permanently in another. An expatriate is is someone who lives outside his or her native country—working or not.

In my eyes anyway, if you move your citizenship (and thus renounce your current citizenship) to become an Indonesian citizen, you are no longer an expatriate.

 

[jstar]

Well, there is also something as nationality. And even with changing your citizenship, I don't believe you can easily wipe out that upbringing you got.

I get it might be convenient to change the citizenship to the country one (plans to) reside(s), but I would never ever consider changing mine btw. Leaving aside the nationalistic sentiments, you will never know how things (or you) will evolve. (Cf. Benederlof.) And I would also want to keep the option to have the right to go back.

 

[colroe]

A few years back, traveling thru Java, met an old guy, very much European in appearance. Dutch parentage, but born and lived in Indonesia all his life. We chatted for an hour or two. I asked him if he considered himself an Indonesian, he said yes, but with reservations. He said that no matter what, a European will always be regarded by the locals as a foreigner.

I guess its just the nature of things. Pieces of paper cannot change our looks and culture. We can adapt, but will always be regarded as orang asing.