Where is Lion Air JT610?

[Fred]

Before some pointless moron says I'm defending Lion, I'm not, just attacking the use of out if date material to make useless points.
They might well have a poor set up now, but posting old stuff hardly proves it, thus doing so is pointless stupidity.

 

[Puspawarna]

They might well have a poor set up now, but posting old stuff hardly proves it, thus doing so is pointless stupidity.

The article does give examples from a number of different years, but it's unfair to say it's all "old stuff." The author appears to be giving historical context - and in the absence of evidence that anything has changed, stories scattered throughout the past decade or so indicate a pattern of carelessness that is apparently entrenched. Further, the article does offer descriptions of the way things are at present, noting that it conducted interviews with various Lion Air staff who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of losing their jobs.

Here's an example from the text that refers to current operations at Lion Air:

Even by its own admission, Lion Air has skimped on pilot training compared with other airlines. When pilots for Garuda, Indonesia's national carrier, train to fly the Max 8, the same new model that crashed last month, they travel to Singapore to practice on a Max simulator. Lion Air pilots, by contrast, take a three-hour online-learning programme.

So Fred, maybe you aren't trying to defend Lion Air, but you seem to have some kind of agenda. Is your agenda just to be contrary? I love contrary! Please, have at it. Rip my post to shreds if you like. (Though I'd prefer if you're nice about it. I'm extremely delicate and I cry for hours every time someone criticizes me on line.)

 

[Daniel50]

Before some pointless moron says I'm defending Lion, I'm not, just attacking the use of out if date material to make useless points.
They might well have a poor set up now, but posting old stuff hardly proves it, thus doing so is pointless stupidity.

Okay Fred, you are immediately defensive around Lion Air, so maybe you fly Lion and are defensive around anything that may challenge your belief they are a good/safe airline.

Other then that, it is the same repetitive pattern of belittling anyone who disagrees with you and continuing to escalate it with whoever chooses to argue. And then being confused by peoples reactions to being called idiots and morons. Over and over and over again. Any chance there is something unhealthy happening in your own attitudes and reactions

 

[R Cameron]

I just noticed the New York Times just picked up that exact article: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/world/asia/lion-air-crash-safety-failures.html

 

[Fred]

but you seem to have some kind of agenda

I do - to avoid bullshit

Decades ago is not today but, if you can prove their pilots didn't receive the correct training as laid out in the manufacturer's guidelines, you have a valid point.
Question is, is the simulator training for an upgraded type compulsory, or just recommended?

 

[Fred]

Moderation note: The post below has generated a moderation action due to being against our Posting Guidelines. You can read more about it by clicking here.​

Before some pointless moron says I'm defending Lion, I'm not

Okay Fred, you are immediately defensive around Lion Air,/QUOTE]

Oops

 

[Fred]

so maybe you fly Lion and are defensive around anything that may challenge your belief they are a good/safe airline.

Not even slightly, but I won't accept stupidity as valid arguments - stuff from many years ago being used as evidence is stupidity.

Do you still wear nappies and shit in your trousers, or did you stop doing that years ago?

Try posting up to date stuff from quality sources that's worth reading.

 

[Fred]

When it come down to the truth, pilots all over the world are reporting they had no training because the manufacturers didn't tell anyone about the upgrades.
If Lion did something wrong they deserve all they get, but this is starting to look like Boeing were the problem.
Was there an issue with this aircraft on previous flight - Absolutely, but did that issue cause the crash? Only maybe but the logs say it was fixed - To dispute that is a very serious charge, and something for aviation professionals to sort out.
Has Lion got serious safety issues at the moment (Not decades ago) - I'm waiting for real evidence before I say anything.

Yer, yer, yer, bash Lion because you have nothing good to chatter about, but bash them with evidence, not bullshit.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/trav...close-new-control-feature-737-max/2001713002/

Boeing didn't tell airline pilots about features of a new flight-control system in its 737 Max that reportedly is a focus of the investigation into last month's deadly crash in Indonesia, according to pilots who fly the jet in the U.S.

 

[Fred]

Reports say Lion's aircraft have been inspected and are fine - I'm sure twit will claim it's a cover up.

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasion...latihan-tambahan-untuk-pilot-boeing-737-max-8

According to him, based on the results of the examination it was stated that the 10 aircraft units used by Lion Air and Garuda Indonesia airlines were in good condition.

"All of them have been examined by our inspectorate, who examined the implementation of trouble shooting , suitability of procedures, equipment. The results were all good," said Polana.

 

[Fred]

What's this about Lion being crap because pilots had an online course?
Seems other airlines are also crap - or followed an acceptable procedure.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/boeing-737-max-8-pilot-report-robert-graves/

Robert Graves
Captain Boeing 737 - Greater Chicago Area

I recently had the opportunity to fly a 737 MAX 8 for the first time. We had been scheduled to fly a 737-800 for the sequence, so when a MAX 8 showed up I was quite pleasantly surprised. My next concern was whether I'd remember anything about the new features of the airplane. Our differences training had been accomplished months earlier through an online course. As it turned out, there was little to be concerned about as the cockpit displays, while larger, incorporate all of the familiar elements from the NexGen series with a few welcome additions. I felt at home in the MAX cockpit right away.

 

[Fred]

Oh, look, Lion says they followed the upgrade training recommendations, but nobody mentioned the new systems that might very well have caused the crash.

https://jakartaglobe.id/news/unraveling-lion-air-boeing-737-max-crash/

How Are Pilots Trained?
An FAA document on training requirements for 737 MAX pilots transitioning from the older 737NG, available online , has no reference to the new anti-stall system.

Lion Air says it followed a training regime approved by US and European regulators. The training was restricted to three hours of computer-based training and a familiarization flight.

 

[Fred]

Ah yes, the most scary part

Wow - I'm scared
An airline that has changed all its aircraft and most of its staff used to skimp on training years ago, and before they made the changes.

Now, who can prove Garuda trained on simulators (Rather than online as appears to be the manufacturer's recommendation) for this upgraded type?

 

[waarmstrong]

.... - I'm waiting for real evidence before I say anything ...

Is this an example of irony?

 

[Bad_azz]

I would have to say that IF a 3 hour online training program is inadequate then surely the providers of that training (Boeing?) are the ones to blame & should insist that it is combined with using a flight simulator, so yes, I think the article picking Lion out & accusing them of inadequate training is being unfair.
I personally am going to wait until there has been sufficient time for a full investigation. & That is not yet. These things take months.

 

[Fred]

Moderation note: The post below has generated a moderation action due to being against our Posting Guidelines. You can read more about it by clicking here.​

Is this an example of irony?

Is that an example of idiocy?

 

[Bad_azz]

I would suggest that before people go pointing fingers of blame they wait for the official repot,
1 because that is the fair way to do these things and the gossip online is harming businesses & livelihoods.
2 It can be problematic for the poster if they slander or libel companies here in RI.

Personally I fully intend to dodge "Lion" and "Wings" for the time being because, from my few experiences of them, they have not been a satisfactory experience for me due to delays & cancellations.
Should they survive a few more years & develop a better time keeping & customer service schedule (as I believe/hope they may) I will revise my opinion.
I have travelled on Batik once (one of their group) & that was perfectly fine, on time, great customer service airside and ground side.

 

[waarmstrong]

Is that an example of idiocy?

Yet another example of irony. Thanks, Fred.

 

[atlantis]

@all board members,

We apologize in advance for temporarily closing the thread, time for us mods to discuss it.

As much as Fred's insults toward us mods "amuses" us, insulting regular members using terms as idiot, moron or whatever bird's name, has STRICTLY no place on this board (or any by the way).

 

[dafluff]

Moderation Note

Dear forum members,

As should now be evident to most users, Fred has a pattern of being abusive and unnecessarily argumentative towards other forum members, including the moderation team. While the moderation team has no issue with being attacked, we do have to step in when this extends to other users. In particular (but not only), these posts have crossed the line of acceptable postings according to our guidelines:

https://forum.expatindo.org/threads/where-is-lion-air-jt610.4191/page-3#post-56245

https://forum.expatindo.org/threads/where-is-lion-air-jt610.4191/page-4#post-56572

https://forum.expatindo.org/threads/where-is-lion-air-jt610.4191/page-4#post-56588

We have previously requested that Fred abide by forum rules, and also warned him that if he continues down this path of negativity, further moderation will be necessary. Therefore, at this time we are issuing a 60 day restriction on Fred's posting ability. As always, inability to abide by forum rules will result in further moderation.

Dafluff
For the Expat Indo Team

 

[ChrisTex]

Did Boeing screw up? Yes.

Did Lion Air screw up? Yes.

Both are to blame for different things.

Now Fred, in terms of your question about pilots and their training, while I haven't flown a plane before, my dad did. Military(KC-10) and commercial(727, DC10, 757, 767, Super 80). I am listing those different planes to help provide some background information for later on. I also have a friend who is also a pilot too.

Since I wasn't born when my dad started flying commercial, I can't say what he had to go through(it was the 1970s), but I have a friend who more recently went through training(just to get started for a particular company) and it was roughly six months which includes classroom and flight simulator.

For a pilot going from one plane to another like my Dad did(727 to 757/767 before he retired), he spent a month in school which included classroom and flight simulator. This is in addition to training pilots have every 9 or 10 months.

The classroom now might be online, but I will ask my friend about that. I know it wasn't when my Dad was flying, but he got out early 2008 so things have likely changed.


I hope that helps with your questions about pilots and their training Fred.