Married in Hong Kong

[Dizzle]

Hi folks,
I'm a Canadian that recently married an Indonesian woman in Hong Kong. Everything went smoothly, we obtained the marriage certificate and got in Apostilled in HK. After that, we registered our marriage at the KJRI in HK, and they gave us a document confirming this. Neither of us are muslim. What would be the next steps for my wife to register the marriage in Indonesia?

When I emailed the KJRI in HK about the process, this was the reply (translated), and it's lacking any detail:

You and your partner can register your marriage at the Indonesian Consulate General in Hong Kong, 4th Floor, Consular Function by bringing the required documents to register your marriage. The required documents can be seen at the following link: Overseas Marriage Registration Service. The marriage registration documents can then be registered at the Population and Civil Registry Office of your domicile city. That is all we can convey. Thank you.

Thanks!

 

[marcus]

... What would be the next steps for my wife to register the marriage in Indonesia? ...

You need to get the Indonesian Marriage Certificate at the Civil Registry Office/Kantor Catatan Sipil of the city where your wife got her KK & e-KTP .

For the required documents you either check at the city's website (usually https://disdukcapil.'city's name'.go.id) or go there . For example , below is what are required in my city (her city may require a little different set of documents) .

---------------------------------

REPORTING OF FOREIGN MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE (free translation)
1. Fill out the Marriage Registration Form
2. e-KTP
3. KK
4. Birth Certificate/Akta Lahir
5. Passports of husband and wife
6. Certificate from the Indonesian Embassy
7. Marriage Certificate
8. 3 colored passport photos side by side

*Forms can be downloaded here

 

[jstar]

Congratulations.

Your spouse has 30 days to visit her Catatan Sipil after she returned to RI.

Make sure she takes everything you can think of, including some copies since there will always be some more demands and thus surprises. Always.

 

[jstar]

Download Formulir | Disdukcapil Kabupaten Lampung Timur

silamtimberjaya.lampungtimurkab.go.id

I guess she could use forms 1 and 7 (F-1 05) for that.

 

[Dizzle]

My wife contacted her Catatan Sipil and they refuse to register the marriage since we are of different religions. What can we do now?

 

[Shadrach]

My wife contacted her Catatan Sipil and they refuse to register the marriage since we are of different religions. What can we do now?

Such a silly reason. Why is life so complicated?

 

[marcus]

My wife contacted her Catatan Sipil and they refuse to register the marriage since we are of different religions. What can we do now?

a) Which religion is stated in her KTP ?
b) How they knew you have a different religion ?

If she is Muslim (or you are) , Centurion had already posted about this problem at https://www.expatindo.org/community...at-kua-and-the-other-party-must-convert.6693/ :
centurion said :
"The regulation of the Ministry of the Religion. Basically, for international marriage to be valid, it has to be valid in line with the regulations of both countries. Indonesia requires religious marriage, ergo, you have to be married with a religious ceremony.

The regulation was first in 2018 and the new one was followed in 2019 by the Ministry of Religion, articles 26-32. I believe @dafluff can help in the legal analysis, but now if you are with Islamic KTP big chance that you cannot register your marriage in Civil Registry Office (I know for sure Tangerang does not allow, while Jakarta still does), and they will forward you to KUA."

-----------------------------

According to hukumonline.com :
Indonesian Marriage Law (UU no.1 Year 1974) - free translation
Article 2
(1) A marriage is valid if it is conducted according to the rule of each religion and belief.

Part Two - Marriage Outside Indonesia
Article 56
(1) A marriage between two Indonesian citizens or one Indonesian citizen and a foreign citizen is valid if it is conducted according to the laws in force in the country where the marriage is conducted and for Indonesian citizen she/he does not violate the provisions of this Law.

So if she is Muslim or you are Muslim , Article 2 above states that you must follow the Islamic rule .

Articles 40 and 44 of the Indonesian Islamic Law state that a Muslim man or woman is prohibited from marrying a woman or man who is not Muslim.

 

[jstar]

A couple of years ago, the reason to marry abroad was that the couple didn’t want to convert. That way it was possible to stay under the radar since a religious ceremony is not necessary. All to make sure they could circumvent the Indonesian law that a couple needs to have the same religion.

If a Catatan Sipil refused to register the marriage, there was a lawsuit and the government office got scolded and had to register it anyway. Even if one of the partners was Muslim.

But but but… there has been a precedent and a higher court decided this is in principle not possible anymore, and the civil registry does have the right to refuse. Also, the integration between KUA and Catatan Sipil has been enforced for marriages and their registration. Which fades the line between religious and civil matters.

I don’t know how to get around this, besides for one of you to convert to the religion of the other.*

Obviously every Indonesian citizen has his/her religion on the KTP. And that can not be empty so it was easy to see for any public servant. I guess the Canadian also provided that information somehow? But that’s not really relevant; they know now and it’s a bit awkward to change your story.

*obviously we can’t and won’t advice anything illegal on this forum, such as lying about it or bribing an official

 

[Dizzle]

My wife is Hindu and I'm Christian. We only had a civil ceremony in HK. She made the mistake of saying we were different religion in a Whatsapp message to the dukcapil when asking for the requirements. We can always lie and say I'm Hindu, but would they ask for proof of a religious ceremony having taken place? Or any proof that we're of the same religion?

 

[Shadrach]

It should be Criminal to be forced to have a Religion! Humans make life so complicated, when it's so unnecessary! You can be Spiritual without having a Religion!

 

[jstar]

My wife is Hindu and I'm Christian. We only had a civil ceremony in HK. She made the mistake of saying we were different religion in a Whatsapp message to the dukcapil when asking for the requirements. We can always lie and say I'm Hindu, but would they ask for proof of a religious ceremony having taken place? Or any proof that we're of the same religion?

Well, in my home country there is no governmental evidence or tracking of the religion of its citizens. Privacy etc. And an embassy would never ever make statements or provide info about this. In the west, religious ceremonies for weddings take place after the civil registration and are not even official or recognized. And a handwritten baptism booklet from many decades ago is probably with my mom somewhere but who knows so there’s no national archive from the churches. So I really wonder how they could track and trace that. Social media? Of course there’s no way for them to know and they would have to believe you on your word. Also, Hinduism doesn't have formal conversion or excommunication rituals and if you declare yourself a Hindu, who is to say that’s not correct?

 

[marcus]

... would they ask for proof of a religious ceremony having taken place? Or any proof that we're of the same religion?

I guess it is possible , despite not required by the Regulation (see below) .
Note : I am not sure if the Regulation is the newest one

In your specific case :
a) If you want to try again at the same Kantor Catatan Sipil :
1. You could convince them that Hindu religion in Bali allows interfaith marriage , if true . I found this (first below) information but unfortunately there is another that contradicts it (second below) , so further searching is necessary .
2. Look for a document agent who can help you [search the internet for something like "biro jasa dokumen KK dan KTP di (city's name)"] .
3. You could ask the Kantor Catatan Sipil if it is possible to correct this problem (for example , by one of you converting to the religion of the other and having a religious marriage ceremony in Indonesia now) .

b) If you intend to live in another Indonesian city (other than the city where your wife got her e-KTP) , try it again there (which will require getting Surat Pindah/Moving Letter now + new KK & e-KTP in the new city) .

c) If you intend to live abroad , you can try again later when you come to Indonesia again .

---------------------

From Google , but could not find the link nor date :
Interfaith marriage in Bali is possible or not ?
The Constitutional Court's ruling has made aware that interfaith couples cannot marry in Indonesia, except in Bali and abroad. Fauzi stated that until now, it is still possible to marry interfaith in Bali, but in other cities in Indonesia it cannot be done.

---------------------

From https://www.hukumonline.com/berita/a/hindu-tolak-kawin-beda-agama-lt5472e6dde9565/
Title : Hindus Reject Interfaith Marriage , Nov 2014
By AGUS SAHBANI
... “The Indonesian Hindu community does not recognize interfaith marriage. Interfaith marriage is indeed known by the Indian Hindu community, but is limited only to people who are considered to be of the same race or Hinduism. Such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism,” he said.

Thus, interfaith marriage in Hindu teachings cannot be legalized ...


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Indonesian President's Regulation (PerPres no.96 Year 2018) - free translation

Article 39
Marriage of Indonesian citizens outside Indonesia must be reported to the Civil Registry Office where the resident is domiciled by presenting :
a. proof of marriage reporting from the Indonesian Embassy/Consulate; and
b. Marriage Certificate.

Article 40
(1) Official & registered marriage of Indonesians with foreigners outside of Indonesia must be reported to the Indonesian Embassy/Consulate in the country where the marriage took place by presenting :
a. Marriage Certificate/proof of marriage registration;
b. Passports; and
c. Certificate showing domicile or certificate of moving abroad/Surat Pindah.
(2) In the event that the foreign country does not register marriage of Indonesians with foreigners , the report to the Indonesian Embassy/Consulate must present :
a. Marriage Certificate ;
b. Colored photos of husband and wife;
c. Passports; and
d. Certificate showing domicile or certificate of moving abroad/Surat Pindah.

 

[Shadrach]

True Love Has No Seasons, No Rhymes, or No Reasons, or Needs a Religion!

 

[Dizzle]

I told them we are married in HK and obtained a letter from KJRI, and all we want is to register in Indonesia now. They sent me this document (translated)

MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE REQUIREMENTS.

1. CNI (certificate no impediment) or marriage permit in another country issued by the embassy of the prospective husband/wife
2. Legalized photocopies of KTP and KK.
3. Side-by-side 4x6 photos.
4. Legalized photocopies of Birth Certificate.
5. Marriage Blessing Letter from the Church.
6. Photocopies of witnesses' KTP.
7. Photocopies of Passports for foreign nationals
8. Certificate issued by the Dukcapil Service for prospective brides and grooms domiciled outside the city.
9. Certificate from the Church, Temple or Monastery
10. Certificate of domicile (current address of prospective husband/wife)
11. The applicant submits an application for marriage registration and fills out the form provided, accompanied by the specified requirements.

For the record, Certificate of No Impediment (CNI) is a certificate for foreign nationals stating that they can marry and will marry Indonesian citizens.

The certificate is issued or legalized by the embassy of the foreign national's country of origin.

To obtain a CNI from a foreign embassy, the following requirements must be met:
1. Latest birth certificate (original).
2. Photocopy of identity card (KTP) from the country of origin.
3. Photocopy of passport.
4. Marriage form from the relevant embassy.
5. Letter of domicile or proof of residence.

The above requirements must be translated into Indonesian by a sworn translator.

Documents for Indonesian Citizens

Below are the marriage requirement documents for Indonesian citizens or the requirements that must be met for prospective Indonesian brides and grooms:
1. Introductory letter from the RT/RW containing a statement that there are no obstacles to holding a marriage.
2. Photocopy of KTP.
3. Photocopy of birth certificate.
4. Photocopy of family card.
5. Forms N1, N2, and N4 from the sub-district and district offices.
6. Form N3 for prospective brides and grooms who want to get married at the KUA and signed by both brides and grooms.
7. Data of the parents of the prospective bride and groom.
8. Data of two witnesses to the marriage and a photocopy of the relevant ID cards.
9. If you are the first child, you must include your parents' marriage certificate.
10. Prenup or prenuptial agreement.

In addition to the documents above, there are other requirements that will be requested by the foreign embassy. Well, here are the documents:
1. Photocopy of ID card.
2. Photocopy of letters N1, N2, and N4 from the sub-district.
3. Photocopy of prenup (if any).
4. Original birth certificate and photocopy.
It is advisable to first photocopy or copy the document as a personal archive.

 

[harryopal1]

I told them we are married in HK and obtained a letter from KJRI, and all we want is to register in Indonesia now. They sent me this document (translated)

Stone the crows. It makes one feel weary just looking at the list. Although they seemed to have forgottento ask your blood type. Back in the days of the white Australia policy Ceylonese applicants seeking residence in Australia had to supply a list of their antecedents going back six generations. Another trick was to apply a language test. An unwelcome applicant would be asked to do a test in Gaelic. That way an applicant was not failing approval for reasons of race or colour but because they could not provide a positive response to the requests

 

[Shadrach]

Stone the crows. It makes one feel weary just looking at the list. Although they seemed to have forgottento ask your blood type. Back in the days of the white Australia policy Ceylonese applicants seeking residence in Australia had to supply a list of their antecedents going back six generations. Another trick was to apply a language test. An unwelcome applicant would be asked to do a test in Gaelic. That way an applicant was not failing approval for reasons of race or colour but because they could not provide a positive response to the requests

What an incredible hassle! Asking someone to go back six generations, and to answer a quiz in Gaelic! They obviously didn't want those People to immigrate!
Racism at it Finest! And to Think? These are the European Criminals that came, and Stole the land from The Aborigines!!

 

[marcus]

... They sent me this document (translated)

From : what your Kantor Catatan Sipil requested , what Centurion alerted in Jun 2022 (see post no.7 above) , and what I saw in the website of the Indonesian Embassy in South Korea (see post no.6 at https://www.expatindo.org/community/threads/marrying-indonesian-citizen-as-a-foreigner.7970/) ; more and more Indonesia seems to show us that Indonesians marrying abroad cannot violate Indonesian Laws and traditions . That usual past practice of marrying abroad to avoid converting to the same religion will probably become more and more difficult .

 

[jstar]

Without the push to KUA registration if one of the partners is a Muslim, something else plays here:

In a circulaire in 2023, the Supreme Court gave instructions to judges “to provide legal certainty and unity” when trying cases of interfaith marriages.

So that circulaire, called a SEMA, the Supreme Court stated not to grant marriage registration requests between people of different religions. Now SEMA is a regulation and not a law! It contains guidelines and instructions.

Obviously it does not mean that marriages of different religions are either haram or illegal. The Marriage Law still recognizes the validity of an interfaith marriage, as long as it is “in accordance with the provisions of each religion”.

There are (still) judges who don’t follow these ‘instructions’.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

What happens if you try to register within 30 days but they refuse to register it? Are you still considered to have broken the regulation, or is it just the attempt to register it that is important?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

If you have to change religion to Islam to get married these days (after getting married abroad), once you have completed the registration process and the marriage is registered, can you then change back to your actual religion again, and have your KTP changed back? I mean, it is not illegal to change religion or to leave islam as far as I know?
And it isn't actually illegal to already be married to someone of a different religion (even if it is no longer possible to register it).