Indonesia set to introduce strict new law banning sex outside of marriage

[Dan]

I feel you are cherry-picking here - yes, the guardian has written some pieces from the point of view of foreigners who want to visit here. Of course they should do this. They aren't an Indonesian paper and potential visitors want to know about it.

They have also written other more thoughtful pieces that look at the impacts of the new criminal code on locals:

Indonesia’s sex ‘morality’ laws are just one part of a broader, chilling crackdown on dissent

Analysis: the moralistic aspects of the new criminal code risk obscuring wider concerns about a stifling of protest and criticism of the state

www.theguardian.com

I didnt look particularly hard for this article - there will surely be more in the coming days as I know they are actively speaking to locals to gauge opinions for upcoming articles.

Totally fair. My beef with that other article is that it's an exercise in white knighting. Indonesia isn't seen as a place where millions of people live, its value is tied to whether or not the Guardian's readership can enjoy a vacation there.

I'm sure there will be more to come on a broader perspective as to how it impacts Indonesia's citizens. What is important to note is where their priorities were immediately directed across a wide swath of publications and, incidentally, where a fair portions of this forum's readership immediately went with as a result.

 

[Pak Tani]

Human Rights Watch: New Criminal Code Harmful to Women, Minorities, Free Speech

Articles in new criminal code violate rights of women, religious minorities, LGBT people & undermine rights to speech freedom, says Human Rights Watch

en.tempo.co

What caught my attention was the following phrase:

According to the HRW, the articles in the new code violate the rights of women,

Interesting. Doesn't this new law equally 'violate men's rights'? I mean...you know... Well the explanation is follows:

...it will disproportionately impact women and LGBT people who are more likely to be reported by husbands for adultery or by families for relationships they disapprove of, the HRW explained.

So it becomes clear that the rights being violated are women's rights to screw around behind their husbands' back.

HRW could have given this news a different spin. Like, how this new law can give (dependant) women a handle to fight back against husbands who cheat on them. But then it would be good news, and that can't be.

 

[gemima]

Totally fair. My beef with that other article is that it's an exercise in white knighting. Indonesia isn't seen as a place where millions of people live, its value is tied to whether or not the Guardian's readership can enjoy a vacation there.

I'm sure there will be more to come on a broader perspective as to how it impacts Indonesia's citizens. What is important to note is where their priorities were immediately directed across a wide swath of publications and, incidentally, where a fair portions of this forum's readership immediately went with as a result.

I do broadly agree - I've been very frustrated with the coverage, particularly from aussie perspective papers "Bonk Ban" particularly irked me. They are writing for their markets so it's asking a lot for them to have thoughtful, serious pieces that no one will read - SIGH!

 

[Pak Tani]

Also, the neighboring countries that are competitors in tourism could underline in their propaganda that sex is a problematic issue in Indonesia.

Will this prevent sex tourists to visit the country? I hope so.

 

[gemima]

I don't know about cherry picking but the guy is clearly a racist.

Substitute "white people" with black, brown, Indian, Arab or Chinese and he would be banned.

His calling something white isn't racist - and on his general point I think he is actually right. I have seen more thoughtful pieces from Indian and other Asian sources than "western" ones. People coming from those regions have more in common with normal Indonesians and cut through the high drama sex focus with more nuanced takes.
I'll stick with using the clumsy western tag though personally.

 

[centurion]

What really matters is that white people can get laid without problems, and that they can indulge in sanctimonious finger wagging regarding Indonesia's policies.

The right to get laid (for white, brown, purple, or other people) is usually the last right that even in totalitarian dictatorships, where all your rights are taken, is still intact (China, Russia, and similar).

If you take from consenting adults the right to get laid, you are on the next level of autocracy (Iran, Afghanistan, Brunei, Gulf states...). Paradoxically, if you have less right to get laid, the chances of TNI invading the village are higher.

That is why this subject is so fascinating to the foreign media. It goes together with the reduction of other human rights, the forbidden sex is just the cherry on the cake.

 

[centurion]

Will this prevent sex tourists to visit the country? I hope so.

You must have had a traumatic experience with sex and adultery when you are so bitter.

So it becomes clear that the rights being violated are women's rights to screw around behind their husbands' back.

HRW could have given this news a different spin. Like, how this new law can give (dependant) women a handle to fight back against husbands who cheat on them. But then it would be good news, and that can't be.

Men are financially stronger and of higher social status in Indonesia. Do not expect women to report their husband's illegal wives in huge numbers.

 

[Pak Tani]

You must have had a traumatic experience with sex and adultery when you are so bitter.

In my post (#104) I was referring to sex tourists in general, don't take it personally.

The problem with prostitution and therefore also with sex tourism is that it often goes hand in hand with exploitation, human trafficking, and other misery. The bigger the industry, the bigger the problem. So if this law keeps sex tourists out, all the better.

Men are financially stronger and of higher social status in Indonesia. Do not expect women to report their husband's illegal wives in huge numbers.

The new law gives men and women both the right to report their husband or wife to the police in case of adultery. If (let's assume this is the case) women more often choose not to report their husbands because they prefer keeping their higher status, then that's up to them. My point still stands, the law itself is equal for men and women and it does not "violate women's rights" as HRW wants us to believe.

 

[R Cameron]

If a spouse reports their partner's infidelity, can the other participant be criminally charged as well if their family does not report? Suppose a married person has sex with an unmarried person (who has no living parents or children) and the spouse of the married person reports them, will the unmarried person be criminally charged as well?

I guess the answer is yes, but the law seems to leave some ambiguity.

(1) Setiap Orang yang melakukan persetubuhan dengan orang yang bukan suami atau istrinya dipidana karena perzinaan dengan pidana penjara paling lama 1 (satu) tahun atau pidana denda paling banyak Kategori II.

(2) Terhadap Tindak Pidana sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) tidak dilakukan penuntutan kecuali atas pengaduan:
a. suami atau istri bagi orang yang terikat perkawinan; atau
b. Orang Tua atau anaknya bagi orang yang tidak terikat perkawinan.

 

[centurion]

In my post (#104) I was referring to sex tourists in general, don't take it personally.

The problem with prostitution and therefore also with sex tourism is that it often goes hand in hand with exploitation, human trafficking, and other misery. The bigger the industry, the bigger the problem. So if this law keeps sex tourists out, all the better.


The new law gives men and women both the right to report their husband or wife to the police in case of adultery. If (let's assume this is the case) women more often choose not to report their husbands because they prefer keeping their higher status, then that's up to them. My point still stands, the law itself is equal for men and women and it does not "violate women's rights" as HRW wants us to believe.

Untrue on both points.
Prostitution is already illegal, and most of the consumers are Indonesian men that cannot find satisfactory sex elsewhere. Not many foreigners are coming for sex tourism.

The old law already gave rights to any spouse to sue others for adultery and that is nothing new.
Indonesian laws do not give the same rights to women, and women are mostly in subordinated status. As men have more money, they will have better opportunities to defend against or commit cohabitation, extramarital sex, and similar.

 

[centurion]

If a spouse reports their partner's infidelity, can the other participant be criminally charged as well if their family does not report? Suppose a married person has sex with an unmarried person (who has no living parents or children) and the spouse of the married person reports them, will the unmarried person be criminally charged as well?

I guess the answer is yes, but the law seems to leave some ambiguity.

The answer is yes, without ambiguity.

 

[fastpitch17]

.

I mean, I'm sorry you're butt hurt that I called it out that way. I'm sorry that you apparently cannot handle me referencing my own race in terms that are critical of how media outlets directed to us as a population glance over far more important issues.

.

You are not.

 

[fastpitch17]

Whoo, at least the Arabs with their contract prostitutes, ah, I mean wives will be safe.

 

[pantaiema]

In my post (#104) I was referring to sex tourists in general, don't take it personally.

The problem with prostitution and therefore also with sex tourism is that it often goes hand in hand with exploitation, human trafficking, and other misery. The bigger the industry, the bigger the problem. So if this law keeps sex tourists out, all the better.

This debate has been for so long since a few hundred years. The discussion of Sex tourism and prostitution have been for many centuries go hand in hand along with human civilisation.
As long as you do not include the religious extremists. There are still no clear winners in this debate
While some experts in anthropology might agree there are still many will disagree.
But it is always be a consensus that religion and the state will need a clear separation.

 

[Hawk256]

The laws are only as good (or as bad) as they are enforced. Prostitution is illegal in many countries and still goes on in the open in most of them. How many laws are on the books that are strictly enforced? Which ones do we take seriously? Which ones affect all classes the same?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Will this prevent sex tourists to visit the country? I hope so.

As I'm sure you know the vast vast majority of users of commercial sex services in Indonesian are actually Indonesian.

 

[Bob]

Untrue on both points.
Prostitution is already illegal, and most of the consumers are Indonesian men that cannot find satisfactory sex elsewhere. Not many foreigners are coming for sex tourism.

The old law already gave rights to any spouse to sue others for adultery and that is nothing new.
Indonesian laws do not give the same rights to women, and women are mostly in subordinated status. As men have more money, they will have better opportunities to defend against or commit cohabitation, extramarital sex, and similar.

Prostitution isn't explicitly banned so we can't say it's already illegal. Not many foreigners coming for sex tourism? Have you ever been to Batam? There's quite a bit in Jakarta and Bali too.

 

[Pak Tani]

Whoo, at least the Arabs with their contract prostitutes, ah, I mean wives will be safe.

Good point, but why would they be safe? There is no real wedding nor do they have any papers. I guess they will be just as safe as any other sex tourist.
Hopefully the new law can also tackle this type of temporary marriage.

Fyi, the nikah mut'ah is not really an Arab thingy. It is a habit from the Shia. Indonesian shia practise it also.

 

[pantaiema]

Good point, but why would they be safe? There is no real wedding nor do they have any papers. I guess they will be just as safe as any other sex tourist.
Hopefully the new law can also tackle this type of temporary marriage.

Fyi, the nikah mut'ah is not really an Arab thingy. It is a habit from the Shia. Indonesian shia practise it also.

Well do you have any idea one of the main reasons why "puncak" is more popular in Arabic countries than famous international tourist destinations such as Bali, Borobudur in Yogjakarta, Borneo (Orang utans), Tana Toraja in south Sulawesi, Lake Toba in Sumatra etc??

 

[centurion]

Prostitution isn't explicitly banned so we can't say it's already illegal. Not many foreigners coming for sex tourism? Have you ever been to Batam? There's quite a bit in Jakarta and Bali too.

Prostitution is illegal in Indonesia according to the (still valid the old one) Criminal Code by articles 295, 296, 297, 506, and 284.

Indonesian karaoke bars, especially in Jakarta, are in many cases paravanes for brothels, full of Indonesian clients-middle up and upper class, government officials, and businessmen.